prh47bridge, admission, Panelmember anyone! 'Reasonable LA' clause in Admissions query

[lougle]

I hope you can help!

DD2 is in Yr 1. DD3 is due to start Yr R in September.

Unfortunately, I had to remove DD2 from her school this week and move her to a new school.

I contacted the LA to ask for advice in such a situation, as to how to change DD3's preferences to match. I was advised that it would have to be a late application.

I telephoned today to advise them that DD2 was now on-roll at the new school, and to double check that there was no facility for swapping the preferences as a change of circumstance. I was given an email address and told to copy the confirmation of my original application, state the new preferences and that it would be swapped as a change of circumstances without a late application. I did so immediately.

This afternoon I called again to check they had received it and the call handler said that the advice I had been given was wrong. Although I can ask them to change the preferences, they will only do so in exceptional circumstances and that is discretionary.

The situation is:

I am guaranteed for DD3 to get into the old school - I live 2 roads away, she is listed as having a sibling at school, it isn't oversubscribed, ever.

I cannot and will not send her there.

New school is preference 2. She now has a sibling there. I would be guaranteed a place there if she is treated as 'on-time' because she would be criteria 3, after LAC and Psycho/medical evidence (it's a voluntary aided school). If she is classed as a late application, she may well not get a place because many people from far away apply.

Would a 'reasonable' authority decide to treat this as a late application, when the circumstances have changed between deadline 1 and 'exceptional circumstance' deadline?

It is tough to prove that a decision is unreasonable. The standard is known as "Wednesbury unreasonable". The decision must be, "So outrageous in its defiance of logic or accepted moral standards that no sensible person who had applied his mind to the question to be decided could have arrived at it." I'm afraid this decision by the LA is unlikely to be regarded as unreasonable.

Having said that, the LA has given you conflicting advice, although sadly not in writing. If you do manage to get anything in writing saying that they would change your preferences without treating it as a late application that would be enormously helpful. If they then treat you as late you can use this as evidence in an appeal. Also, depending on the circumstances surrounding DD2's move, it is possible that an appeal panel will be sympathetic and willing to class the decision as unreasonable even if it doesn't strictly meet the test.

Have to agree with PRH. The LA will probably have a set date for accepting applications due to change of address but I have never seen any processes that talk about changing school due to other circumstances. So if you are past the cut off date you can only change the preferences as a late application. If you had it writing that it would be accepted as on time then that would be different and I am sure that an admission appeal panel would see that as good reason to expect that the new school is treated as your first preference.
As it stands the high probability is that you will be offered the school you now do not want, as it is your first preference. If you decided to change preferences and be a late application you would not be considered until after all the on time applications have been allocate places and in reality be in the same position as you would leaving the application as it is. That is having to go on the waiting list of the school you want and hoping you are top of the waiting list and somebody declines the place offered.
Assuming you have no written evidence of the initial advice the question becomes what kind of records do the LA keep of the conversations that you have had and what will they do about your request which is in writing. Does your request in writing say you understand it can be treated as on time due to the special circumstances of the case? Will they process it as on time or process it as late application or not bother to process it.
I suspect that your best bet is to do nothing and see what happens. If you do not get your favoured school, object saying that you asked for the change and they have ignored it, despite saying it would be OK. I guess they will say go to appeal and that is what you will have to do. At least you will be saying the LA made a mistake, which means a panel could find in your favour. You need to keep everything in writing and also notes of times etc as it all adds to the suggestion that you were given poor information by the LA.

Thank you, that is very clear.

The admissions team advice line states that it is recording calls.

The email I sent states that I spoke to "Sam" and he informed me that the team could change my preferences without processing as a late application due to a change of circumstances, if I emailed a copy of the original application and stated the changes.

It goes on to explain that DD2 is now registered at a different primary school and as such I'd like that to be her first preference with the reason as "older sibling".

Will that get me anywhere?

My dilemma as to how to proceed is this:

There are 3 key dates:
15th Jan -main application deadline
15th Feb -exceptional circumstances deadline.
16th April late application deadline and national offer day.

Incidentally, my LA states the following in their brochure "Final date for changes to on-line applications 15th February 2013. If you provide evidence to the admissions team of a significant change of circumstances (usually a change of address) you can make a change to an on-line application until this date."

My concern is that if they don't consider a change of school 'significant' I may have to appeal on the basis that I was led to believe that I was told my change of circumstances would be processed on-time. IF I send a late application then does that undermine my position?

Secondly, if I don't send a late application, then I will miss the 'late application' deadline as well, which means that DD3 will be behind not only those who applied on-time but DD3 would have gained a place ahead of, but also those who applied late, even if they live 10 miles away.

Would emails containing thinly veiled (think condensation-on-a-window-thin) accusations that I am fabricating illness in DD2, along with medical records showing that I have visited the doctor expressing concerns about attendance, told by doctor that DD2 is genuinely unwell, pursued it after this, had a referral to a paediatrician, etc., then an emailed threat of legal action because I removed DD2 from that school (securing a new school place offer the same day, with a visit planned for 2 days later and a start date 2 days after that) count as evidence that I can't send DD3 to that school?

I am not an expert like prh at all, but I have read your other threads and IMHO the change of school should count as exceptional circumstances. Because it wasn't an every day lind of, hmm I think I would like a different school instead, there has been an irretreivable breakdown in your relationship with the school.

I would probably confirm to them in writing the details of the converstaion you had, and request that they send you a transcript of the phone call (as they are apparently recorded) as this might help. I really hope you succeed. You may need to request the transcript under FOI or data protection regs if they are awkward (data protection I suspect)

Do they have examples of what "Exceptional circumstances" mean?

Because round here exceptional circumstances in admission means basically serious illness of child applying (sibling/parent wouldn't count) or things like moving due to witness protection/domestic violence where police and SS are involved.
A friend had to change her child's school due to one of the above and she went down as late entry, but it put her to the top of the waiting list and she got a space before the school year started.

I suspect that the admissions would regard your circumstance as new child, nothing to do with older child, which is silly to say the least, but from what I've seen, issues with siblings count very little.

If I were you, I'd send a late application now, but try appealing/complaining that you were mislead. I don't think sending in a late application as an insurance should count against you.

Hope you get it though.

Santas - I wish you were the admissions clerk

DeWe - No, they don't, the brochure simply says:

"Final date for changes to on-line applications 15th February 2013.

If you provide evidence to the admissions team of a significant change of circumstances (usually a change of address) you can make a change to an on-line application until this date."

If a change address counts then personally I'd say siblings at school should also count. But that's my opinion.

The fact that they say calls are recorded is helpful in that they can check what is said but we don't know how long they retain the recordings. However, the fact you have stated in email what you were told is good.

You have asked them to change your preferences on the understanding that it will not result in you being treated as a late application. They are now saying that it will be treated as a late application contrary to their previous advice. Thinking about a possible appeal, it shouldn't really make any difference what you decide to do. If you change your preferences and they treat your application as late your argument is that they said they would treat you as on time. If you stick with your current preferences your argument is that you only did so as you were given conflicting advice. It seems you are unlikely to get a place at your preferred school either way so if it were me I think I would change the preferences. If they do treat your application as on time you have a chance of getting your preferred school. If they don't you can appeal on the basis of the advice you were given.

I'm assuming the emails came from the school you no longer want. Whilst an appeal should be about why you want this school, not why you don't want the offered school, this clearly shows that the relationship between you and the school has broken down completely. It might be worth sharing these emails with the admissions team if you have not already done so and seeing if they agree this constitutes a significant change of circumstances.

Thank you for taking the time to read my thread. It seems I'm one of the lucky ones!

I spoke again to Admissions today (dog-with-bone) and happened to speak to the young man named 'Sam' who I spoke to previously. He tried to change his advice and said I may well need to do a late application as 'it relates to another child.' I clarified that it is the same child's application, just a change in where her sibling priority relates to, upon which he said 'they may change it for you.'

I decided this was a bit woolly for me, so I asked him his surname for my records.

It may well be co-incidence, but half-an-hour ago, I got an email which says:

"As you have a change in circumstance that has been notified to us before the administrative freeze date, I have amended the preference order as requested.

Primary School is now listed as your 1st preference school with Sibling criteria."

So, I have it in writing that she is listed as a sibling at new school and it is our first choice.

Unless there are 60 children who are either Statemented, LAC, Have medical/pshychological evidence or have a sibling at the school and live closer than 1.7 miles (we're rural), she's guaranteed a place at new school.

Well done! I think this is the right decision as change of sibling's school is akin to change of address in my view.

Well done and also big positive tick for the LA admission office as many would just have been pedantic and not accepted the change.

Brilliant. I am so happy for you.

Well done. I'm glad it is all sorted.

Thank you for the advice - it allowed me to speak with confidence to the admissions team.

Got here a bit late.

It seemed to me that the fact you were making this change before the LEA's 'exceptional circumstances' deadline of 15 February ought to have weighed in your favour. I am glad to hear that it has and things have been resolved to your satisfaction.