Sounding out, whole word and phonics question

[Shattereddreams]

My dd is doing well with her reading. Y1.
At home we read more extensively than school books so I am aware there is an element of pushing her above her school ability so to speak. But her school books are not particularly challenging ORT Level 7.

When she approaches a long unknown word, she basically panics. Small words if unknown don't cause problems, just long ones.

If phonetic, I ask her to sound out. But she can't. I think she reads in a whole word way, and she tries to make a word that she does know without really looking at the word.
Eg
Tethered she wanted to read as teacher.

She has a lazy supply teacher this year so hasn't made much progress in school, plenty at home though.

Is this fear normal progression?

I wondered about the phonics test because if she can't sound out unknown words then this could be a problem.

I was frustrated with my child's progress in Year One. I also found the whole phonics topic quite difficult to understand. There's a great video tutorial at www.phonicsmadeeasy.webs.com which is really clear and simple for parents to help support their child in phonics. I found it very helpful and use the Jolly Phonics workbooks they offer. It has really boosted my daughter's confidence and she reads happily now.

Thank you for the link and Learnandsay...thank you for your comments...very helpful.

No learnandsay you do not need phonics to teach a whole class to read but you do need phonics to be able to read whether you are taught it discretely in school or work it out for yourself. The first option is obviously the most efficient for everyone.

Well, yes, except for the occasional children whose parents have popped up here in the last few days explaining that they need advice on getting away from phonics because their children can't read using phonics and need whole words. Nobody wants to be told - you do need phonics to read -- if they don't need it. Maybe most people need it (I don't know.) But some definitely need not to have it.

I'm the mother of a child who can't read using phonics and it is a huge handicap for him ...and many others.

I think that's true but if someone can't read using phonics and can read very well using whole words then they need whole words. (If they can be taught or persuaded to become very good at using phonics then great. But then they aren't people who can't use it.) If they're genuinely people who can't (despite all efforts to do so,) then the last thing they need to be told is -- you have to use phonics, you need phonics. because that is the very last thing that they need.

Concur Learnandsay.

Learnandsay my son could read the Financial Times at age three! He was still badly handicapped by lack of phonic knowledge as he progressed through school.
Stupidly I thought, like you, that as an excellent reader it didn't matter.

I personally think that my DD remembers new words as a whole word sometimes...

She read a book with the word "island" in it and could not get the word right...I told her it as a whole word as I have to confess that I don't know the phonics rules for that word and the word did not appear for another 4-5 pages and then she got it correct and did not even have to stop to think about it.

She never sounds out (but maybe does in her head, I don't know although she is very fluent and by that I mean the speed that she reads her books)...

What is most extraordinary is the assumption that because a 5 or 6 y old can memorise words 'they don't need phonics'.

If your child is sounding out words, be thankful. That is 'phonics' and it will become increasingly useful to them as they reach the limit of memory for whole words.

I'm afraid I was guilty of that assumption maizieD (I knew nothing about phonics when my son started school unfortunately)

The real rules for island come from Old English (ig) island + land (land) Middle English iland. Mistakenly from Old French isle, scholars added an s to iland thinking, incorrectly, that the French isle, influenced by the Latin word insula was the origin of our word. They forgot about the Anglo Saxon original.

The etymology sometimes helps children understand why a word is written the way it is but it isn't a spelling rule. In the case of island the etymology isn't particularly helpful with the spelling.

learnandsay I don't for a moment think that you don't know what you're talking about. But I'm against this notion that we just keep banging away at the child until we break her down into doing it our way because our way is best.

What a very emotive way of describing a methods of teachng reading.

-banging away
-breakink her down

I think you are mistaken. It has been proven that phonics works for all children. Look and say and whole word recognition works for those children who have good visual memories- but even they will struggle eventually if they cannot decode a word that is new to them.

If a child cannot use phonics then they have probaly not had a good teacher, or enough practise. There are very very few children who cannot leanr through phonics- those who can't may have a problem with auditory discrimination and processing, but enough multi sensory teaching should help hugely.

It's doing a child a diservice in the long run not to persevere with phonics because as I said above there is al imit to how many words the brain can hold purely by relying on sight memory.

excuse typos- on phone.

It's been proven that phonics works for all children

ha ha ha ha
ha ha ha
ha
haha
ha

oooh

ha ha haha ha

"If they're genuinely people who can't (despite all efforts to do so"

Although not a primary teacher myself, I would like to suggest that there are very few children who can't be taught to read using phonics if they are taught well.

From posts on this website I think the issue for many children is that they are NOT taught well using phonics, and then when they haven't really got the hang of it parents' frustration causes them to wonder if a different approach would be better- answer probably not 99 times out of 100. Or, to correct myself, yes, a different approach would be better, one that taught using phonics more systematically and consolidated with correct level phonic reading books.

learnandsay *unless the child has say learning difficulties in whcih case they will struggle with any method.

Are you an educational professional?

You would do well to research the mountains of info out there, including the Rose report and the findings of the Reading Reform group.

Learnandsay*
I think part of the problem and the phonics frenzy that you're talking about is what confuses people. As far as I can tell you do need phonics to teach a whole class to read (if you're really trying to teach everyone). And you do need some phonic elements (maybe not the whole mad theory) but you definitely need some sounding out.

Eh?

This post of yours clearly shows you do not have much idea about what phonics is.

What are some phonic elements?

Why is it a mad theory?

If you are able to back up your theory - your anti-phonics theories- then I am listening but I'm not convinced so far.

Your post is contradictory at best- you need phonics to teach a whole class- but you definitely need some sounding out?

Phonics is "sounding out".
[confusd]

Logic clue for you, missop, any proof involving all children needs to involve all children. I think that's a bit of an impossible project. What most investigators do is choose a sample, extrapolate and theorise. Of course you can feel free to do whatever you like.

As all my work is with children who are on the SEN register I can fairly confidently say that all but a tiny number of them have absolutely no problem with phonics at all.

What most investigators do is choose a sample, extrapolate and theorise.

Are you familiar with properly conducted research studies? In any discipline?

Answer the question : are you an educational professional, and have you even heard of the reports I mentioned?

If not then you need to educate yourself before posting any more.

I do do what I like because I have a huge amount of experience in teaching reading-- stretching over decades - and I've seen what works and what doesn't.

Logic is logic. Phonics is not proven to work with all children. Your statement is wrong and your questions are irrelevant.

Nearly all though learnandsay. It is a rare medicine that works 100% of the time for all people.

Is there anything that would make you change your mind learnandsay or must we all bang heads with you for as long as we remain on these threads?