Would you speak to teachers re: concerns or just move schools?

[Jjou]

DH and I are currently struggling with the decision whether to stick with DD's current primary school, or whether to put her name on a waiting list for a different school and just take the leap and move her.

She's in her 1st term of Foundation 2 (reception) and has come on so much with reading, writing and maths in just 1 term, but there are only a handful of kids who are at the same stage - they have time away from their classroom for this. The rest of the kids are nowhere near the same level. I'm impressed that they make provisions for the brighter kids, but there are a lot of kids with behavioural problems and SEN in her class, and some who are just plain naughty, and it seems as though a lot of the teacher's time is taken up with this. Going forward how will they continue making provisions for the kids who can do the work? They can't take every year group to the library for special tutoring - what will happen when all of the kids are expected to do actual work?

The school is in a very deprived area and the Head and her staff are very dedicated to making it a good school, but some of the kids are bad news: DD's behaviour at home has deteriorated massively since September, although her behaviour in school is very good.

Is it worth speaking to her teacher about our concerns? How do you say nicely that her time seems to be spent managing other children's behaviour and issues? She's always distracted and frazzled, with half a dozen or more kids playing up at any given time. Also, if the kids are working to widely different levels in later year-groups how is this managed?

I don't think we're being overly precious, but there are a couple of kids who give me cause for concern, and I'm not too happy at the thought of DD being with them for the next 6 years. She seems to be clever but she doesn't grasp the social side of things and she's drawn to these kids even though they treat her like shit (I'm talking about the ones who are just plain nasty and ill-behaved rather than lumping all of the children in her class with behavioural/SEN in with this by the way)

This is really long, sorry! Just trying to organise my thoughts - DH is overly pessimistic and only sees the bad side of everything. I try to be more balanced but while some aspects of the school are very good, DD's class in particular worry me greatly.

Hmmm.. I think I'd leave it and see how she gets on next term. It's only the first term of the first year and everybody is still settling in.

Aside from your description of kids playing up all the time it sounds like a pretty normal reception class to me.

Behaviour deteriorating at home in the first few years at school is very normal. They are giving all their best stuff at school and saving all the rubbish for home. So it really is nothing to do with the other kids.
In every school you get a mix of children and there will always be some who are better behaved than others. In reception the teacher is dealing with a range of abilities from those who have never sat still for 1 second and can't wipe their bottom to those who are able to sit and concentrate for 30minutes.

The fact that the teacher is already differentiating is marvellous and tells you you probably have a gem on your hands there. It will get easier the further up the school they go as more and more of them are able to sit and concentrate.
I would concentrate on helping her to work out what sort of people she would like to be her friends.

Which school would you move her to?

If it is another similar with a class of 30 then the issues will be the same?

Unless you have spent much time in the classroom I'm not sure you are well placed to judge "naughty" and identify those with behavioural /SEN issues. If your dd has an issue with specific children raise it with the teacher. Teachers are trained to differentiate teaching and cope with ability ranges. If you feel this is not happen show interest but be prepared to be told your dd doesn't fit the criteria for "special tutoring" - whatever that may be in Reception . I feel you may be misinterpreting what is very normal in schools up and down the country and the consequences of starting school but most schools will welcome positive parental support.

It's normal to have a range of abilities and "behaviours" in Reception. And in Year 1. It seems to balance out a lot by Year 2. There were a lot of dreadfully behaved boys in DS's year group, but the school did a very good job of establishing the behaviour they expected and the boys behaviour was much improved by the end of Y2. I'm not sure just moving your DC to a random other school will be much different.

By all means put your child on a waiting list - it might be a long wait for a place anyway - but I would definitely also speak to the teacher. It's unlikely that your DC's year is widely different to the one above or the one above that and the teacher can reassure you (or otherwise) that they can manage your issues.

It's pretty much the same in many, if not most classes of 30. There will be children with SEN, there will be 'naughty' or aggressive children. It does 'level out' and in my experience reception is the worst. The difference in maturity can be huge, not only based on the age difference, but some children are just not well settled in school. They do take teacher's time, but it's the same everywhere. I found that it does settle by year 2, children are so much more mature and learning more formal.

DS2 has special educational needs and he is one in the top group for both reading and maths, so don't be fooled by the SEN label.

I was just going to ask where you'd consider moving her to? If there is another school that she could have got into and that you prefer, I assume she'd have gone there in the first place?

I would be a bit cautious about blaming the behaviour of other children for your child's deterioration in behaviour at home - my Y1 dd was a nightmare for most of reception at home (and still has her moments...) but model behaviour at school apparently.

By all means have a word with the teacher, but this does sound pretty normal for the first term of reception. Things will settle down by the end of the year.

Nothing that you've said sounds out of the ordinary for Reception - if she is making good progress with her studies what are your concerns?
Is the other school you have in mind got a different set up/mix of students?
Better behaviour at school than home is not unusual...

Hmm, well, if you have a bright and able child and you want her to be at school only with other academically bright and able children then you'd better have plenty of money and be willing to pay for a very competitive prep school. Or you could understand that this is what school is all about, each child making the best progress they can and at the same time learning to get on with other people who may be very different, and rejoice in the fact that your own daughter is doing so well. Boys in Reception and Y1 are notoriously all over the place and often not ready for formal schooling. Just wait till Y2. I think it's too early to call, and as long as your daughter is making good progress and has found one or two like-minded individuals to befriend then it's not really an issue, unless you are very, very ambitious for her, in which case probably in your heart of hearts you DO want a fee-paying school, and should be ready to accept the shortfalls of that choice (and I don't just mean financial ones).

Hi there I was the deputy head of a very tough primary school in the centre of London. I taught their for seventeen years, managed SEN and also was the designated teacher for Child Protection. My specialism is Early Years. We always got outstanding from Ofsted, the teachers were brilliant, curriculum interesting and children did well considering their very low starting points however....none of the teachers sent their own children there, would ve never considered it because most of the children in the school had such extreme needs they realised that their own children would be overlooked. Plus there was little going on after school, o birthday parties or play dates for example. I often spoke with parents about moving their child to a school with a more balanced intake of pupils. And encouraged them to do so if i felt it would serve their child well. and those children did go on to achieve very well. why did you choose this school? If your child s school is as extreme as mine was then I understand your concerns. Private message me if you want to discuss further x

Hmmmm, I wouldn't be concerned about the difference in abilities, but I would be a bit concerned about the teacher being frazzled and lots of kids playing up "all the time". That bit doesn't sound good! Kids are quite random in YR but the classroom should generally be in control. If you don't feel it is then I think I would probably look elsewhere asap, although of course this could be this one teacher rather than the whole school so you'll have to decide if you should jump now or hang on in there. I wouldn't like my child in a chaotic classroom, luckily haven't had to deal with this so far...!

How do you know all this is going on in the class? I suppose what I mean is do you know for sure because someone in the school has shared this information with you - or is it based on Mums' gossip - or does your child tell you?

In my experience, I have two children and am a childminder so I see quite a few classrooms/children. I live in London, so this is a reflection of where we live/

In every Reception class there are:

• one or two children who have problems controlling his/her aggressivity and can punch / hit other children without warning
• two or three children, perhaps very young and / or that were born prematurely, or twins, who are not settled (some people would say not 'ready' for school), will disrupt other children, are a bit 'behind' in the learning schedule
• a few children who are playfighting pretty much constantly
• one or two children with speech difficulty and need extra attention, perhaps with a IEP (individual educational plan)
• Between one and five children with special educational needs.
• a few children who are very shy, don't participate much, play on their own, are not very good at socialising
• a few children who are very good, very fast learners, or can already read when starting nursery
• quite a few children who like playing and talking loudly

If you want to question the teacher's behaviour management, ask the school if you could see their behaviour management policy. It sometimes include their anty-bullying policy as well so it's useful to have. It will give you a clue as to how teachers are supported by management on how to manage behaviour in the classroom.

anti-bullying!

Are you coming back OP?

Yes! I just can't get on the interweb in the evening!

Re: how do I know about the children's behaviour? I've taken DD to whole-class parties throughout the term, attended assemblies and open days and stood in the playground at drop off and pick up. The same kids all the time are awful, but you watch the teacher and the classroom assistant and they're managing these kids constantly. DD got shoved out of the front of the line before school the other day, so one of these girls could go first - the teacher just let it go, she's going to have bigger battles with this girl throughout the day. The girl's Mum just watched. Some of it is low-level stuff, not a big deal in isolation, but as a whole...

At the moment I'm happy with DD's progress - she, and a couple of other kids, get taken to the library and they're taught to read, write and do number-work. I can't fault the school for that, I just don't see that it's feasible once they're no longer in the Foundation Unit, and ALL of the class are expected to do work.

The OFSTED report mentions a much higher than national average of SEN and behavioural problems - it didn't bother me when we chose the school as it seemingly deals with them very well, but as time goes by is, it to the detriment of the kids who just get on with stuff?

This is why I posted - for perspective! I know that Reception is a huge adjustment for the kids, but talking about this with DH over and over is getting us nowhere. I'm usually of the 'wait and see' mentality but when does that spill over into passiveness? It's interesting to hear all of your thoughts, thanks!

The OFSTED report mentions a much higher than national average of SEN and behavioural problems - it didn't bother me when we chose the school as it seemingly deals with them very well, but as time goes by is, it to the detriment of the kids who just get on with stuff?

I would say the fact that they acknowledge and work on this from such an early age is very positive. If your dd turned out to have a problem such as dyslexia later on you also might benefit from such a policy. Lots of schools adopt a "wait and see" policy and fail such children by not identifying them early, making referrals, and in turn that has a more detrimental effect overall.

The contexts in which you see these children - parties, special events, playtime - are when they are likely to be at their most excitable. Having a routine and a calm classroom environment is part of the management you talk of and that in turn could simmer things down during the school day to a greater extent. I agree with what has been said before about this year group being demographically similar to those past and future- teachers are usually experienced in a range of issues and abilities which you seem to underestimate. Be careful about assuming the grass is greener elsewhere.

It does take them a while to get the kids under control. One boy in DS's year was a chair thrower in reception (!), but they worked it through with him and he's learnt how to control his temper now. I think others are right too, as it takes kids a while to get going. My son was described as sub normal levels in years 1+2, but is now the best reader in his year (4) so you can't really tell yet. I'd only worry if work wasn't differentiated and if there weren't a reasonable number of children working at about the same level as your DD. Also, there's a lot to be said for being part of a disparate group. It will teach her a load about life and people. You can't measure that, but it's worth its weight in gold imo.

You're right, and I am impressed that they have a robust policy in place which will benefit the kids that need extra help, and that could include my DC further down the line. I also know that not every child who does have SEN is disruptive and not every disruptive child has SEN. But having floated though my own school years watching the same 'naughty' kids absorbing all of the teacher's time and energy I was hoping that DD might not have to endure the same.

I just don't think there's a way to bring this up with the teacher without coming across as pushy and/or snobby . It's a option if things don't seem to be settling down in the next term though, it's just how to broach it - it's hard enough to articulate here with the benefit of the delete button! DD rarely tells us much about school when questioned, then she'll just come out with some tidbit apropos of nothing, but the picture she paints is of a fairly chaotic environment, albeit she's not the most reliable source!

I think wait and see is ok for now, academically she's doing fine and I guess that's the most important thing.

Hi Jjou:

I hear you that you're concerned your bright DD may ultimately not get the support and encouragement she needs long term at her school because of high proportion of disruptive children (SEN or not doesn't seem the issue - it's disruption that's bothering you).

Several questions:

1. Is she happy there.
2. Is she cared for there.
3. Is it a single form school (i.e. will they stream as she goes up through the school - other multiple form schools have an upper ability class in KS2 in our area - so for example a school in the area is teaching Shakespeare in Y6 for more able pupils - I was surprised at first, but from what I'm hearing it's going really well, it's not deep literary review more just about the stories, but incorporates visiting Stratford-upon-Avon and the Globe, writing news articles about tragic death of young couple, re-writing a scene from Mid-Summer Night's Dream from the point of view of another character, etc... and having talked to a few kids at the school at a recent ballet lesson, it sounds like they're having a lot of fun. This is way beyond DD1's level, so I'm not hugely jealous - but envious of such inventive and engaging teaching going on there).
4. is it likely if she remains she will do well (what are KS2 Y6 SATs like there? - what are the teachers like in KS2? what do parents think who have older children?)

Now my DD2 is in a class with a mildly autistic boy. He spent much of YR and Y1 hitting her at times. She came home bruised once. The mother, who's a very kind and obviously worried lady, was so apologetic but I understood he can't help it, he's just struggling to communicate and frustrated.

In Y2 and now Y3 he is much better able to explain (go away you're bothering me or come play with me) and he's much more accepting of children around him, although he still isn't really engaged with anyone particularly. A lot of parents have been really against having this boy at the school, but I think it's brilliant. Yes he has behaviour problems and can get stressed and act out - but then so do the 'normals' in that group, including my own DD2 who can burst into tears at the drop of a hat. I really do think it is useful to be exposed to disability and not be phased by it - it's just one of those things, he's a bit different but it's not gross or strange or weird, it's just how it is.

There are rowdy boys (from good and bad backgrounds) and really poisonous little girls (from very good backgrounds) who I would dearly love to see the back of. But the point is that DD2 is learning to negotiate her way through all these difficulties. She has hard days, she has bad days - but generally it's getting easier with every passing day. She's learned to walk away before trouble starts and she's learned to ignore teasing, pushing, shoving, bullying - and just go off and play quietely or read. She has a small group of good friends who often are manipulated away from her by a few pushy girls who won't allow them to play with her or inform DD2 that this game is only for 3 or 4 and there are no more spacces.

So frankly from my experience - as long as your DD is happy and generally thriving, a good dose of real life in a safe environment where she's well cared for is a good thing long term. It sounds hard but a bit of 'toughening up' is a useful life skill - genuinely.

I hope this doesn't come across as glib - and I'm not trying to belittle your concerns - but changing schools is a big decision (I know because we often worry about what is for best with our DDs because of our concerns over poor educational performance at our school). It's also important to understand that even at so-called 'leafy suburban schools' where superficially it all seems lovely - there are all kinds of playground politics going on. No joke - but the scruffier the kid at our school, the nicer and more well behaved they are.

PastSellByDate - brilliant post/advice.

Jjou I would also say, based on experiences of a similar sounding school, as they go up into NC curriculum, there are many more opportunities to have topics in higher years.
DS1 and 2 have both had numeracy and literacy in years higher than their age so that it is stimulating and keeps them progressing.
Teachers are very used to differentiating work and extending learning opportunities. DS1s teacher has to differentiate year 5 from 2C to high 6 in levels and uses all resources - including out of year, break out groups, precision teaching etc to manage this.
I agree with Pastsellbydate - This is where my DSs live, these are the children who live in the streets around them, these are the children who play in the local park with them. They need to be able to communicate and negotiate with everyone through their life.

I think that you are really lucky to have a school that makes provision for the more able students - how will you know that you will get that at an alternative school?

PastSellByDate, you daughter's school experience sounds horrible. How's learning to ignore teasing, shoving and bullying can be a good thing? I think you should look into finding a school with a better pastoral care.