Refusing to put dc on next reading level or even assess

[Blueschool]

Dc in in year 2. Has been on same reading level since September.

My dc may not be good at a lot at school, but reading is dc strong point. Not the top of class but quite advanced. Not just my opinion but her previous teachers and helpers.

Her current level is not a challenge anymore. Mentioned this weeks ago. Given a huge list basically telling me why dc is a crap reader in teachers opinion. Very surprised as one area always was praised on reading.

Took it on chin and we worked hard to resolve the issues like "not enough expression".

Dc reading is just fine. I can not find not fault.

My comment I wrote last week was the "book was not a challenge". Teacher took a whole page up in dd reading record to again tell me how crap dc is.

I felt the comments were utterly unfair and do not reflect reality at all. She also told me I could buy books to read at home! Very unfair assumption dc reads for pleasure all the time and has 100+ at home.

She said IF she wants she will assess her after Christmas she will.

My issues are

• I thought parents and teachers were meant to be in partnership with education. How is this a partnership?

• IF dc is genuinely reading badly at school WHY? Why is there such a difference? Why is her educational environment not making her feel confident and supported to show her real abilty?

• Another parent has told me they have had similar issues as the teacher gets herself stressed. Im sorry, but holding a child back because you are stressed is quite something.

What should I do?

OP can you remind me of the NC level your child is currently on for reading and for writing?

I see books that come home from school & reading at school as being a very small part of my children's literacy & reading experience. With my first I worried like the OP but now I worry more about what they get down on paper. Someone here (a teacher) kindly posted something ages ago about writing being key in KS1 when people were getting worked up about reading at home not matching reading ability at school etc.

One of mine is an able reader and happily can read a longer Roald Dahl with extremely good understanding - chortling along at the funny bits etc. In guided reading I'd say the books were generally far simpler, perhaps simple enough to be a bit dull at times. We just carry on at home and I accept that they are at probably at least a couple of sub levels higher in reading than school have assessed. Does it matter? Not really. Not sure which level a child with excellent comprehension (demonstrating deeper inference skills plus, plus) of a more complex Dahl would be that could also read such a text at about 98% accuracy? There always has to be someone at the top and at the bottom of the guided reading group I guess. I try to stretch all my children at home exposing them to lots of literature but they are not often willing to be stretched :).

I know that some of the teachers on this thread would subscribe to the view that a child's comprehension is related to their oral vocabulary and not which words they can decode. This means I don't quite understand why such a strong link is made between a child's competence to read books designed more to be cumulatively difficult to decode than on cumulative difficulty with comprehension. If a child is stumbling over words and not able to focus on understanding then the decoding level of the book is too high (but in fact they might be able to understand the book if it was read to them.)
I do see that my 4 year old would struggle to access purple level books as they are written with children a few years older in mind - but by and large a child will get pretty much as much from gold as from purple, depending on their oral vocabulary and understanding of the world they bring to reading. Going up a level does not present a significant cumulatively more difficult challenge with comprehension.
This is largely because comprehension is not an all or nothing experience. When my 9 year old chooses to help my 4 yr old with his reading she chuckles at nuances my 4 yr old can't see but that does not mean the book is unsuitable for my 4yr old as he understands the very basic plot and chuckles at the crude humour of someone falling in a river. When I look at the same book I see the author is also showing tension between 'Mum' and 'Dad' that my 9 yr old knows nothing of! Of course a child needs to get the plot and not have a book whose central focus is beyond the child's understanding.
I found this especially bemusing when dd2 was in reception and found the L2 books very easy. The teacher trotted out the standard comprehension reason for not moving her up. Aside from the fact my dd's comprehension was then and still is, rather good, what in heavens name was she struggling to comprehend? If it was that she had to learn how to explain her understanding of the books in a way the teacher wanted she could learn that just as easily on L3 or L4. (Of course the teacher must always be right and the fact I also knew that my daughter had only done group reading once a week with an assistant and not been assessed for 3 months, including over a holiday when she made lots of progress, had nothing to do with it. The fact that I moved her school at that time and they immediately put her up 2 levels is also pure chance.)
I do agree that in the greater scheme of things the reading level of your child is not a big deal and that teachers are bothered by parents that simply don't understand why a level is appropriate, when it is. But as I much earlier said, I think that some teachers(not all) when asked about reading levels feel they are being criticised and trot out comprehension as an excuse. I think this happens a lot because in many schools the teachers spend very little time reading with the child and their parent spends quite a lot of time.

quite simply, a brilliant post beezmum

I'm with beezmum on this.

Beezmum is it not that teacher's look at reading levels with prescriptive criteria in mind? Those looking to move from a 2c to a 2b will tend to be in the same guided reading group - the teacher will target the sessions so that they cover the criteria that needs to be met. Of course they'll notice children that can do more & are generally good readers but they will have specific skills they are looking for to show progression at that level? Each child may have a different target but all the targets will be within the same sort of band.

For example it might be to retell a story - it might be that your child can understand deeper inference etc & is a great reader but they are looking for evidence they can do other things? If that makes sense? You need to tick all the boxes before you can move up to the next NC level which often correlates to the next book band.

Yep, completely agree beezmum. Dd can understand books that I read to her way above her reading age (and she's a pretty good reader). I really don't understand why comprehension is mixed up so much with reading especially in the early stages when there is very little text to 'analyse' and it seems to be more about working out what's going on in the pictures.

Fab post beezmum couldent agree more.

dd old teacher said was comprehension
moved school moved up level told it was fluency.

hamish bear-take your point on levels schools so target focussed on level if i tiick 1,2 and 3 off im a 2b.

However her end of term nc level for reading 1b dident correspond with level 3ort she was reading? that baffled me as when looking at reading comparision 3 ort was working towards level 1 not even a 1c.

Often as parents we read stories which kids enjoy but dont always get it all.

But when we were asking several questions to a very simple book dd was bored to tears it was very clear she could comprehend the very simple and tad boring plotline.

I will admit when dd is tired she can be bit lazy and try guess words or decipher from picture on page drives dh mad.

Hence why i prefer slightly less predictable plot less repitition and not as many pictures as its forces dd to decode and read.

I guess most kids go through this phase.

Also me and hubby are very diffrent hubby helps her too much.
I give her time and sometimes she decode a word but not pronounce it right so once decoded i will say how else could you pronounce that work.

Blueschool can see why you fearful as last teacher took everything we said personal was quite agressive, off and patronising hence why we moved as thourght im not sure can cope with her this year we were going to end up in a row,

I would be asking when she last heard her 1 and 1 and can she have assesment as you tested her comprehension and you dont think thats the issue.

Just wanted to say

some kids may genuinally have issues with comprehension.
But others teachers use it as lazy excuse to not do anything.

Mrs z issue I sometimes think from speaking to other parents they become blinkered they no theirs an issue but they put to back of their mind and try normalise it and making it less serious ie hes just abit behind if we read at home more he will catch up, he may have fact made marginal improvement at home little does that parent know what the benchmark expected level is so hes doing good for him and not senco issues.

Dds freind was premature she has few minor issues.
but her mum is convinced shes very bright, science and maths genuis and is pushing her in that direction she cannot accept she cant be average and is very hard on her.

Thanks everyone - I am positively glowing - but ready to get flamed later in the day...
Hamish I do see what you are saying but...
-The level of the group reading book does not need to be the same as the home reading book. The home reading book is hardly ever used by most schools for the teaching of comprehension in terms of a specific list of skills.
-Also there is a presumption that a child can achieve specific comprehension targets on one level but won't be able to on the one above. I don't teach children comprehension at primary level but this strikes me as unlikely to be that clear cut except when there is a very marked disparity between decoding ability and vocab knowledge and understanding of the world.
-Finally as comprehension grows far more from having an expanding vocab and understanding of the world than it does from teaching of skills there is a strong argument for putting good decoders up levels rather than keeping them down as they will be exposed to a broader range of vocab and learn about the world from higher level books.
I've read that something like 90% of vocab is hardly ever used in speech. We learn it through reading it and need it to comprehend.

I will add to the praise Beezmum . I don't like the way "decoding" is sometimes spat out as if it's a dirty word.

And while I'm at it (whispers) I don't much get this whole expression thing either. So long as a child reads in a way that shows they understand full stops, commas and maybe question marks what else are they expected to do? When I read to dd I put on silly voices, shout when characters shout etc (more to make it interesting for me tbh) but dh doesn't - but that's just his style, I'm sure he does actually understand words like 'shout', 'whisper' etc.

I'm going to say dumbing down, Manic, and I'm going to whisper it even more quietly than you.

"I love j and a ahlberg books. And so does ds! However it's possible the Op's child finds it boring, and if so I agree she should be allowed to read something else"

I would be very surprised if the OPs child was only bringing home J& A Ahlberg books but my point was to allchildrenreading ...these are not reading scheme books they are children's story books !

Yes, a brilliant post, Beezus - many thanks.

Msz - I'm a big fan of Cops and Robbers, Burglar Bill, Each Peach Pear Plum, The Jolly Postman. These were the books written in collaboration with his late wife, Janet. After she died, I think the books became less creative - not surprising, and this had been a wonderfully creative colaboration. The couple of Biff books I read seemed much more mechanical - written to order - more suitable for a younger competent reader perhaps?

The main point I was making was why on earth would a child be held back in this way? Surely once a child is reading fluently s/he shouldn't be held back by the double whammy of decodable books and leveled readers. When my two became fluent readers (age 5 and 6 respectively) then could read anything they wanted to - a reading diary was filled in weekly. There were no stultifying questions - an insult to intelligence imo. Beezus addressed this point very succinctly.
By Year 2 - after 2 years of phonics (essential for beginners) all but the struggling readers should be free to lose themselves in books, learn from reading widely, rather than being kept in a straitjacket. This tick box culture is turning children away from reading. For the first time I can see why such creative and imaginative writers such as Michael Morpurgo, Frank Cottrell Boyce,Philip Pullman are so dismayed about what is happening.
Year 2, segmenting for spelling is very useful - but please leave children to read freely where possible.
From Western Australia government report this month. ?One of the things that we know about kids in terms of literacy and access and knowledge and the ability to be part of the secondary school curriculum - and one of the biggest drivers - is their vocabularies. The difference between a student who reads throughout primary school and a student who does not is in the magnitude of 30, 000 to 50, 000 words. (The) capacity .. to engage well with the curriculum has been really significantly compromised.?

Bonjour L'Hudge

The main point I was making was why on earth would a child be held back in this way?

As I've not listened to the child read I'm not in a position to know if they have been held back or if they are reading fluently.
IMHE comparatively few children enter Y2 reading fluently but that is probably due to the background of the children I have worked with and realise that the picture will vary around the country. But fluency develops with maturity, experience and understanding ... reading scheme books ideally should be a tiny part of a child's reading experience. They have a purpose just the same as any text book but are a school tool which is why I don't understand why parents would want to buy them when they could buy any of the wonderful books published for children.

Their children might not be able to read any other types of books. Perhaps they haven't yet learned the necessary graphemes to read the books desired by the shopping parent. I don't know how many parents (who haven't taught their children to read themselves,) accurately know what their children can read and what they can't. The library, if it's a good one, is probably the place to find out. But some libraries are dire and others are closed.

I thought we were discussion "fluent" readers learnandsay?

The children I find who struggle with other reading materials are the ones who have rushed through a single reading scheme to the exclusion of all other books.

Oh, right. Well, in that case of course they should have a wide range of reading materials. They don't need to be books though. I'm sure some boys would rather read manuals, magazines, computer game instructions and so on. That's fine too. But, unfortunately there are going to be children who don't come from an environment where reading is valued and it's likely that they will have all sorts of pressures put on them to put the books down and get involved in other activities. But that's OK, isn't it? We all make choices in life and for some of us books aren't high on our lists.

And children who come from bookish environments are likely to have lots of help choosing books. They're likely to be introduced the the classics by people who've read them. They're probably going to get taken to the National Trust properties where the authors lived. The list goes on. Maybe children who don't come from those environments won't. Or if they are taken to those places they'll spend more time playing hide and seek than looking at the exhibits.

learnsay, I didn't teach my dd to read - I supported her teachers in teaching her to read as I figured that they were more skilled and trained than I.

I can say though, that through reading with her regularly, I know pretty much exactly what she can and can't read and what she will and won't like.

I don't think I'm unusual.

We are a family of bookworms & I can think of few things I'd enjoy less than dragging DC around NT properties that used to house famous (must be dead, realistically) authors.

Maybe if it was JK Rowling's house, they might be up for that.

Actually I think not that many children are fluent readers in Y2. Maybe Y3? And I think learnandsay is right that parents buy the scheme books before their child is reading fluently and want to do more reading at the right level at home. But once they are about purple/gold level then there is a world of riches to access.

I don't think living in a bookish environment means that the child will be an enthusiastic reader nor do I think a home devoid of reading will mean that a child won't have a love of books.

My eldest child was an avid reader and my second although a good reader didn't choose to read for pleasure. My headteacher says it's a joy that his second child loves books after his first showed no interest whatsoever ...

There is research (often publicised) though mrz that if you grow up in a house that has books in it (never mind if you read them or not...) you will do better at school.