CofE school - non-religious family?

[Gavotte]

We need to apply for school places soon. Our local school (we can see it from the window) is C of E. It's got an outstanding rating from ofsted, kids seem really happy and it seems like a fantastic school in most ways. We can almost certainly get a community place as we're so close to the school.

But (and it's a big but) we are non-religious, and the school is massively so - worship is one of its four pillars (and organised religion tends to leave a very nasty taste in my mouth). Our alternative is a new, un-ofsted tested infant school which looks lovely - but risky as the junior school hasn't been set up yet, and there are no plans for where it will be or who will run it (likely to be another nearby junior school, most of which are pretty rubbish).

My question is to non-religious parents (or those of other religions) whose children have attended a (worshipful) church school. Was it compromising? Did it matter? How did your children deal with the challenge of different belief systems at home and at school? Was it worth it?

Many thanks in advance.

Even non church schools are required by law to have a daily act of collective worship. Most primary schools will manage this, most secondary schools fudge the issue!

I used to work in a C of E school, judged outstanding by both OFTSED and SIAS (the church inspectors), the main ethos taken from the church values was that of being a family and working together. We we did collective wroship, but other than at Easter/Xmas this tended to be pretty general and more of a thought for the day type thing. We had plenty of non church goers, and plenty of those who had no religion or a different religion (e.g. muslim/JW), it didn't filter down into lessons at all.

DD attends a community school that isn't officially C of E.

It is quite religion heavy. I am atheist. If our local school was C of E I would try to get her into a different school if at all practical, though it isn't always possible. I just try to give her a balanced view TBH, if she tells me a story about god or jesus etc I just say that some people believe it is true but other people don't. And when she told me that they 'have to' pray in assembly I told her that she has to sit quietly but she doesn't have to pray unless she wants to.

IMHO I am avoided teliing her I think it's all nonsense, but I have found it hard sometimes

A school which is just over the road would have to be pretty terrible for you not to take advantage of this huge plus. If it has an outstanding ofsted and more importantly, really happy children, then it has a huge amount going for it.

At primary level, assemblies where there is an act of worship is mostly going to be about going beyond oneself and being kind and caring for others and seeing how amazing the world is. If you really object to organised religion then I think you can ask for your children to be removed from those assemblies.

we not rc but dd went to rc prmary and sister in rc preschool.

lots of non rc and other faiths.

we live in a christan country.

Know few parents whos kids go community school whos outraged about amount of faith.

so i would say theres little diffrence.

both say prayers=-community less rc said 5 a day.
new coe much less heavy on faith
both celebrate christian festivals
they boith teach other faiths in re.

I would go for best and most convieniant school for your child.

I find the faith often means they talk about nice values as hubby calls he it hes an athiest but agrees being nice to one another, giving to others-charity. som veiw faith schools as slghtly more disiplined and lost here get better results,

The rc selected admissions but coe is lea control so its cathment only they cant discriminate.

Have you visited the school very close to you?

Dd went o a Catholic school till recently.

Not only were there prayers at least three times a day, but the other subjects would often tie in (hymns in music, religious stories, an entire afternoon of RE each week)

Dd started saying things like 'God only loves Catholic children'. They had displays up in the hall saying 'forgive me father for I have sinned' and crosses/pictures/statues all over the place.

She is home educated now, and the religion thing was a huge factor.

It was the only school she could get into, and that was only because we lived at the end of the road. When we looked around they said they were inclusive and only prayed a bit.

Dd goes to a c of e, I am atheist (as is the rest of the family)

It can be interesting as she comes home with "jesus made the sun didn't he" type things, but we deal with it as magi does, and explain that some people believe that.

It is interesting to hear the range of experiences in faith schools. DS goes to an RC school but religion is expressed in the form of being kind to eah other and apart from a thankful prayer at lunchtime no other prayers are said. The prayer at lunchtime is very encompassing if all faiths and none. It's more of a "we are thankful to have food in a world where so many go hungry" sort of thing.
Lots of non-Catholic children attend the school.

Hi Gavotte:

If you haven't - go to a prospective parent day and have a look at the school.

Then make a pros and cons list.

PRO:

Outstading school
Children seem genuinely happy there
Great initiatives educationally?
Great after school activities?
Convenient location?

CONS:
The religion thing

We're at a CofE school which scraped a good (reading between the lines on the OFSTED report) recently. Lots of schpeel to parents afterwards about new, harder regime of inspections from OFSTED - but the reality is our school puts more effort into Christmas production/ nativity play and learning hymns (including all hand motions) than it appears to put on mathematics. Nearly all assemblies are religious in theme - which from out point of view is rather depressing. I'd love one on science or one on history - but it isn't to be clearly.

Although I'm not pleased with the school - my issues are entirely educational rather than religious. A lot of illusion in art and literature has Christian imagery as a subtext and having some grounding in the Christian 'story' does make accessing 'great art works'/ 'literature' easier.

I personally have no desire to give up our Sundays walking, visiting friends, etc... for Sunday school so am at least grateful that my children are learning some of the great bible stories. The school also teaches about other religioins - we're a very diverse community - and community pressure is leading them to do so more respectfully of other faiths and their ancestry/ literature and artistic contributions.

I think if your core concern is the 3 Rs and this is an outstanding school - just accept that the religious side of things is in the English National curriculum wherever your child would go anyway - and as long as they aren't openly pressuring your chlid to join the church, it probably isn't much of an issue.

HTH

DS attends a CofE school but it serves the whole village and we are not religious. He previously attended a run of the mill primary. There is a bit more religion but there was far more than I expected at the first school. Both teach respect for others faiths & visit other places of worship such as hindu temple.

Like Magi I just say different people have different beliefs. I haven't gone so far as to suggest don't join in prayers and do feel it has a good pastoral/moral influence. If asked DS will tell you he isn't a Christian as he hasn't been christened.

I'm an atheist but my children go to the tiny village c of e school. There is quite a bit of singing about jesus and occasionally assemblys and things in local church ( which is very nearby). It is all very "low church" though and the children arent becoming indoctrinated as far as I can tell. At the age of 5 DS1 used to sing "jesus is love" or something but aged 8 he seems to be coming down on the atheist side of the fence.

C of E schools vary quite a lot. You really need to think about your opinions and look at what the school does in practise. Also do ask them those awkward questions (it can't stop you getting a place).
However as it is so close and so good, you probably want to go with it.
My DCs very Christian, C of E school has a lot of pupils of various and no faith. They do sing religious songs (Shine Jesus Shine), but the rest of assembly could well be about Science (how to pick up a potato with a straw) or good morals (sharing). The most spiritual assembly, is their thoughtful one, which is held in class and they discuss and think about an issue, such as saying sorry. They also study a wide range of religions, which includes visits to a Hindu Temple and to a local Passion Play.
You really need to ask questions and think about exactly what are your sticking points.

Also do remember all schools are supposed to operate with "broadly Christian" assemblies unless affiliated to another religion.

In our home education, we cover religion from two angles - the RE "some people believe" way (eg today we have made diwali lamps, rangoli patterns and curry, and read the story of Rama and Sita) and the cultural/art way (such as greek myths in paintings, bible stories, visits to cathedrals, etc) We just leave out the teaching it as truth bit.

I don't think that approach leaves anything out. In fact, it covers more IMO than the standard offering in even a religious school.

I'm actually pretty annoyed that state funding goes to religious indoctrination and that it is impossible to find a state school where you can be sure it won't creep in (as are a few of my religious friends) but that is a whole other issue...

Hi Gavotte, I thought about starting same thread myself as we visited the CofE school in the afternoon after the infant school visit in the morning.

We are atheist but the school is great educationally so came away feeling it's really tough to choose. However having slept on it, it's more religious than I was expecting and I can't shake the slightly sickened feeling I have about the sheer number of crosses everywhere, an altar in every classroom, the HT saying they go to church "once or twice" a term then listing 8 times they go in the year, plus a weekly service in school by the vicar. And worship being one of the 4 pillars - I'm fine with general morals but worship I have a problem with.

Yet it's impossible to know for any one child what effect any of this would have, with the influence of their family alongside. I was reading a general thread about what to look for in primaries last night and someone cited the research that school has only a 10% effect or something, family is still all at primary (even moreso mother's education, statistically).

The infant school I felt better about than I thought I would, and I reckon it's odds on that the Jr site will be the police one, which is big and as the DHead said, lots of room for outdoor stuff there. And by then, the rapidly improving Jr down the road that would be responsible for it will be much better (new head there making good changes, only been in post 2 years).

Got to go now but I'll be back!

It was just a small part of my childs school life - initially in reception my child seemed to think more of it but then by juniors, DS had his own ideas about god and other religions. Also the school has lovely moral's/ethics. There is always a deeper meaning within many of the christian stories told at school and I don't think you have to be christian to relate to the values of kindness, forgiveness, compassion etc.

DDS go to CofE school largely due to resins similar to op. It frustrates me that most schools have religious elements. A truly secular education would be my ideal. DD in yr3 has declared herself atheist as did ds at that age. It pisses me off no end when she had to learn the ten commandments last week - teach her some maths ffs, she hasn't made any progress in maths for a year.

Mine (6 of them) are at/have been at a CoE school. We are not religious. TBH I haven't given it a second's thought. The school is a very good one so that's all that matters to me really.

We are non religious and have sent ours to a cofe school. It is affiliated with a local church - so the odd attendance at church is required. Carol services and harvest festival type of thing.

They teach all religions there and my dd has often got them all mixed up. She's come home with pictures of Jesus nailed to a cross. And also asked recently to be christened. I've said wait til you're older and then decide. There is a religious slant in that they sing hymns and say prayers. But I just see it as information she can take or leave really. It's a bit odd at times - just because we aren't religious. But at the same time I don't see it as anything too indoctrinating. She really has no idea at the moment of the boundaries between christiantiy/judaism/muslim faith.

If the school's results are good I wouldn't worry.

We had the local CofE school as our fifth and last choice last year because we 1. didn't think we will get in (year before, 24 out of 30 kids in their reception were either churchgoers or siblings) 2. we are atheists and the idea of religion didn't appeal. But after a lot of drama (which involved DS1 going to a private prep school as the school he got sent to was awful and the local non-religious schools we thought we would get into were unexpectedly over-subscribed), we unexpectedly got a place in the CofE school, we went to see it, loved it and DS1 has now been there since early October. There hasn't been much overtly religious overtones so far, no one pressuring us to go to church or anything. Not that I care as it's a great, great school with fantastic pastoral care. DS1 has settled in really well and just loves it there. We almost didn't put it down as a choice but I can't believe how close we came to missing out on this wonderful, local school because of our religious bias.

I'm in the same situation: nearest school is CofE. Visited last week and despite 'God with us' emblazoned across the entrance and blurbs, was pleasantly surprised. Basically there is daily 'collective worship', they warned that the children often choose the hymns and they tend to love the twee ones that adults hate rather than the ones we might remember from childhood. But only half the places are awarded to Christians and most of the other kids aren't. I ended up asking how they ensured non-religious kids didn't end up feeling like second-class citizens and was convinced by their answers - very much of the doing good acts type rather than talking about it type of Christianity.

I'm looking at the community school nearby too, but we may only get into the CofE one. My feeling is while I might prefer it not to be Christian, at least they've thought about how they influence the children and what religion means in the school in a diverse area, which might be better than a teacher in another school going off on one. And the other school has a turquoise uniform and is a bit further away - and extra 15 min walk each day mounts up over 7 years!

I'm a similar distance from the CoE primary school and DH and I are respectively atheist/agnostic. The foundation (church) governors are very active and in our case it does mean they influence the ethos of the school. However, unusually I think, the majority of parents are not practising Christians, nor have they have to pretend to profess Christianity to gain a place. The pupils on the whole tend to follow their parents' lead in terms of belief.
In my view, in practice the school doesn't preach at the children any more forcefully than did the Scottish 'non-denominational' school DS1 attended, where Bible stories seemed to feature surprisingly often outside of collective worship. DS2 doesn't make waves in the classroom, but he doesn't think God is any more real than Harry Potter.

The only way to make sure that your children get an atheist education is to homeschool or move to a country such as France where there is no religious content in the curriculum.

If religion disgusts you so much that crosses and altars make you feel sick then any C of E school no matter how good, convinient or caring it is will be wrong as you are going to have to compromise what you believe. So you will have to send them to a school further away and with a greater risk to their education, but if your atheism is so important to you then that is your only option. Welcome to the world of faith and decisions that are based on it...

There is really very little difference between a church school and a community school, one is CofE and one is non denominational - they are both Christian.

Children are not anything, merely the children of atheists,Christians, Muslims etc. They will make up their own mind later - despite schools and parents- they have a free choice.

I'm not a fan of church schools at all. my dts attend one, and they are Hindu. I draw the line at them attending church for worship, but the rest I have had to accept I don't really have any choice in.

It's not been too bad so far. THey learned the Lord's Prayer, which I didn't really like much, but generally in prayers they are encouraged to think of someone special if they don't believe in a christian God as such. It was diwali on Tuesday and the HT gave out sweets to the hindu children, which I (and dt1) was really impressed by!

So overall it hasn't been as bad as I thought it was going to be. We just reinforce our beliefs at home, and a respect for those of others.