Punishing as a group - not sure I'm happy

[LingDiLong]

DD has just gone into Y3. After being a split class throughout infants they've all come back together so the size has gone from around 25 to 38. They have a lot of TAs in there though.

DD is generally a well behaved little girl, she's rarely got into trouble in school (to be honest I hardly ever have to tell her off myself). So far this year DD keeps coming home with tales of how they've lost playtime that day. Every time it seems to be because of very minor infractions made by other children in the class or on her table but the whole class gets punished e.g. her table didn't tidy up quickly enough after an activity so they lost 5 minutes, other children were talking when lining up to go outside so the whole class lost 5 minutes. Furthermore, when they lose this playtime they all have to stand by a wall in silence and, according to DD, they end up having time added on if anyone talks or cries which they invariably do.

Now, DD doesn't seem particularly bothered and is happy at school but it's starting to annoy me. The school has always been robust about discipline with high expectations and firm but clear boundaries and consequences - I like that. But this all seems too harsh, doesn't it?! Or am I being PFB? I'm considering having a chat with the teacher about this and another issue (not enough reading books being sent home). I never speak to the teacher about stuff like this but I'm starting to feel (particularly where reading books are concerned) that my chilled out 'not wanting to bother the teacher' attitude doesn't actually do my kids any favours.

Whole-class punishments are meted out exclusively by teachers with poor behaviour management skills IME

But the teaching at DDs school is exemplary. Behaviour is exemplary. The children take pride in their school. Have they really got poor behaviour management skills?

Giving whole class punishments could never be described as 'exemplary' teaching. A cattle prod would also ensure exemplary behaviour, yet nobody in their right mind would advocate it as a behaviour management strategy.

The likelihood is that the behaviour at your DD's school would remain exemplary without the use of whole class punishments. Is it written into the school's behaviour policy?

I've never had reason to consult the schools behaviour policy. And DD is always happy at school. When I volunteer at school trips the class are always happy and respectful of each other. I've got no reason to complain.

It is poor teaching and suggests that she has not sufficient methods to get the children to do as required.

I would first make clear to the teacher that you are concerned about it and if necessary explain that it is unfair to punish those who haven't done anything. On top of it, it encourages the 'good' ones no longer to bother being good as they risk being punished any way, so it is very counter-productive.

If no joy, then make an appointment with the Head. It could imply that there are other issues going on and the Head may need to have a closer look.

Sounds awful. Not a very creative or fair way to use discipline or make kids enjoy school.

Not good when used frequently like this. However, things like tidying can be the whole table's responsibility. The only other time would be if so many were uncooperative that it is impossible to tell who is doing what. 38 sounds like hard work.

I think its daft, personally.

When dd1 has had this in her class (rare, I think its only happened when a particular teacher has felt overwhelmed or out of control) its had the effect of alienating the well behaved children - who either rebel or give up - and pleasing the disruptive ones. Causes resentment and rows. Not hugely positive....

That said, its still early days and if a teacher is trying to get a handle on managing a very large group of kids early on in the year....well, with any luck she will calm down, build individual relationships more, the kids will calm down, and things will get better.

I suppose what I'm thinking (in dd1's case) is that if her teacher is feeling a bit stressed and defensive, me wading in to complain about her behaviour management at this stage might not help. Though I'd do it anyway, if dd was really unhappy about it.

Meant to say - the tidying up a table IS a group responsibility though, so fair enough on that one.

Thanks again everyone - sorry I've only just got back to this, been a hectic weekend. I'm going to see the teacher this week and just have a chat. If nothing else it'll give me a feel for what kind of teacher she is, my DD is my eldest so this teacher is 'new' to me. It's reassuring to see other teachers saying they don't rate this method of punishment - it makes me feel justified in at least raising it with her. I'll let you know how I get on!

This happened in DS's class last year a few times. I think it's crap and indicative of a weak teacher. And the 'peer pressure' argument just doesn't stack up; if an experienced teacher can't control badly behaved children, why should a bunch of 9 year olds be expected to?

I agree with it being 'lazy teaching.' The nearest I get to it is, if they're faffing about with tidying up and we're meant to be getting on with something else, getting them to finish tidying at the beginning of playtime. That hurries them up. And even then, I usually let the ones who always do the lion's share of the tidying (whilst others stand around chatting) go outside on time. I've rarely had to do this more than a couple of times before they get their act together.
Ditto, if I'm waiting for quiet at the end of a session and there's fussing going on, I'll let individuals go first. The others soon get the message.

I don't like the idea of a whole class standing against a wall for playtime. Again, once or twice we've done a "learning how to walk sensibly in a line club" for a few minutes at the start of lunchtime with a particularly hyper class, which worked a treat as they were terrified they'd miss their turn for lunch and have to go in last.

So, there are other ways and means. But anything that's done too often, or is blatantly unfair, will lose its effectiveness very quickly.

I definitely do not agree with this form of punishment - it is lazy and ineffective. Why should children bother to behave well if they are punished for something others are doing.

I understand that if say the toilets were flooded or damaged and they need to find out who did it then it may be a way of finding out who but as a general rule teachers shouldn't be doing this.

My DS1 would be burning with the injustice of this. He will accept losing playtime if HE has done something he shouldn't have, like talking when he should be listening, but if HE was punished for what someone else had done, I can see him walking out of the classroom tbh.

A school class ISN'T a team. It is somewhere I send MY child to learn. I don't give two figs about the other DC's in the class, they're not my responsibility.

I don't agree with collective punishments, IMO it's lazy, and unfair.

My DS1 is NOT responsible for anyone else's behaviour but his own, and this doesn't teach the misbehaving child to take PERSONAL responsibility for their own actions.

It's not up to my DS1 to 'police' others behaviour. The only person's behaviour he has any responsibility over is his own.

So if he is badly behaved, I expect him to take his punishment 'on the chin' so to speak. But equally, I expect someone else who has been badly behaved to take their own punishment on the chin. My DS1 should not be given any sort of responsibility over other people's behaviour, it should be their own personal responsibility.

If someone robbed a bank, you wouldn't 't imprison their whole group of friends if none if them were involved, would you? So why would you punish a whole class for the misdemeanours of a few?

My Ds struggles to sit still, randomly shouts out (then gets in trouble if he doesn't contribute in verbal discussions), appears to be rude and disrespectful, has outbursts due to frustration, refuses to do his work if he is scared to get it wrong....is currently under an educational psychologist for all of the above - poss asd, and yes his teacher last year used group punishment and also removed playtimes if a pupil refused to do his work. So as you can imagine he was not a popular person. He was approached in the street by random children telling him he was naughty so he would have a huge breakdown 1)because he hadn't been naughty 2)he thought he would get in trouble with myself (he doesn't get his own way at home), we live close to the school so most of the children around us are from the same school, the majority are the same age as Ds so they don't want to play with him or he is a target for bullying. He cried during the night because he was lonely, asked me to go to school with him because he had no friends.

In a nut shell he was damned if he did and damned if he didn't, but the school won't treat anyone any different, if its good enough for one its good enough for them all......which is fair enough, but try explaining that to my son.

I completely disagree with it, if a child is misbehaving then that child should be disciplined and their parents contacted.

"appears to be rude and disrespectful"

Ok, so I spoke to the teacher tonight and feel reassured. She said as it's a large class and the start of term and a formerly split class who are now back together they are all very excitable and loud. She is making them lose 1 minute of playtime when they are talking over her/not listening. She assures me it is when the class as a whole are misbehaving and is no longer than 1 minute. She seems sure that it will all settle down as the term goes on. So I'm happy with that and she was very nice and approachable which is also reassuring.

jiggly I find clam's response to you v upsetting. I won't go into it now, but I know exactly what you meant by "appears", as I have an ASD child myself (who is actually really well behaved in class as it happens, yet still makes mistakes when judging "tone")
I've seen loads of children labelled as the naughty one by their classmates,which is bad enough, and group punishments never helped. In fact the one teacher who did try it (that was a while back if I recall, quickly ditched it, and used "calming" techniques to bring the team together instead of attrition) In our school there are no group punishments.