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Phonics help please

49 replies

lunar1 · 15/09/2012 16:04

Can anyone help me with the next step for my son in phonics. He knows the sounds for all the individual letters and can read the 25 cards the school gave me that were 2 or 3 letter sounds. not sure what system they use, i think it may be made up!

He has been moved out of KG to reception for reading which is 3 times a week 1:1 with the teacher. She has sent home a reading book, bob met ben. He is supposed to be sounding out the words which he can do, he just cant figure out what word the sounds make. for example he will sound out b o b correctly but doesn't seem to hear the word. instead he attributes a completely random word to it.

Is there a way to get him to hear the word he is sounding out, or is he just not ready and i just need to continue sounding the words out and he will get it eventually?

All this phonics is just a mystery to me!

OP posts:
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mrz · 16/09/2012 09:07

Sight word reading works well if the books only contain words the child has memorised but completely useless as soon as they encounter an unfamiliar word.
masha I really recommend you invest some time in learning phonics Hmm

SoundsWrite · 16/09/2012 09:58

The 'sight words' method of teaching reading works so well that when California adopted it and mandated all their teachers to teach it in 1997, after five years the State of California, the richest state in the union, ended up bottom equal in the reading league tables with Alabama, one of the poorest states in the union! Two years later, phonics was re-introduced.
Even in the beginning stages, a 'sight word' approach doesn't work at all for a small minority of children. For those for whom it appears to work well, it does so because, in the beginning, there isn't very much to remember, which gives the 'approach' the appearance of much promise. Unfortunately, as in the California example, as the repertoire of words increases and the task get more difficult, it delivers less and less. What's more it distracts children from learning what they need to know in order to be able to read and spell any word in the English language.
Do not be taken in by the siren song of Mashabell, who has not a shred of evidence to support her claims.

Feenie · 16/09/2012 10:22

And no experience in teaching children to read, either.

mrz · 16/09/2012 10:34

If I wasn't clear with my reply I fully agree with what SoundsWrite has said.
In books such as ORT and Ginn 360 which start out requiring a child to recall one or possibly two words per page (and to guess the other word using the picture clues) children can appear to make rapid progress but then they encounter unfamiliar words they can't guess from pictures or context and unfortunately that is when confidence plummets. If a child is equipped with the skills to tackle any word they meet they are less likely to struggle or give up.

meditrina · 16/09/2012 10:54

You can do mrz's game with pictures, of course, if you don't have objects. And once's he's got the hang of it, introduce some which are similar by rhyme or have another one letter difference eg: rat/cat, pen/pan, bat/bag. This will practice hearing the smaller differences between words.

(In jargon, this practises "phonemic awareness"; a phoneme being a 'unit' of sound which changes the meaning of a word. The relation between the phonemes of the spoken language and the symbols of the written language is at the very heart of reading).

Mashabell · 16/09/2012 11:31

When children remember words as wholes, they don't it with their eyes shut.
If they are learning words like 'cat, rat' or 'man, map, mat', it is arrogant to assume that they do not notice the similarities and differences in their letters.

It's not a matter of either or.

Mashabell · 16/09/2012 11:32

..they don't do it with their eyes shut.

Malaleuca · 16/09/2012 11:35

mrz's description of presenting pictures gives children the idea of what is meant by 'say the sounds and read the word' but it is a knack which some children can take a while to learn, and can be frustrating for the child. It is necessary to model - so child has examples. It is also advisable to start with continuant sounds like m-a-t, s-i -t.

For extensive practice of blending for beginners, the BRI books from www.piperbooks.co.uk are extremely effective.

Feenie · 16/09/2012 11:40

If they are learning words like 'cat, rat' or 'man, map, mat', it is arrogant to assume that they do not notice the similarities and differences in their letters.

Why wait for them to 'notice'? Hmm What an extraordinary method. Why not just teach them explicitly?

mrz · 16/09/2012 12:16

Sorry if I was unclear Malaleuca I'm not talking about reading written words at this stage just "hearing" the sounds and blending orally. I understand the OP's son hasn't started school yet ? and although he can match sounds to letters he can't aurally combine the sounds so that he can say the word, so I would take a step back before expecting him to read written words.

Silibilimili · 16/09/2012 12:50

So what is the next step after the Cvc words?

mrz · 16/09/2012 13:03

The problem is the school has taught the OPs son letter /sound recognition in isolation and not in context.
One method (used by L&S JP RWI etc) is to teach day 1 teach day 2 teach day 3 - and at that point begin blending and segmenting words. So on day 3 the children would blend and segment "at" and "sat" on day 4 they would be taught and blend and segment "at" "sat" "pat" and "tap" day 5 learn and blend and segment "at" "sat" "pat" "tap" "it" "sit" "pit" and "tip" ... (I would also teach "past" at this point)

Sounds-Write starts from the words rather than single letters so children are introduced to blending and segmenting from the very beginning.

Silibilimili · 16/09/2012 16:23

mrz, that is exactly how my dd has learnt but the blending has not or to me it seems, 'clicked' yet. How do I make blending 'click'?

lunar1 · 16/09/2012 19:42

Thank you so much to everyone for your replies.

I am sure that some children manage just fine starting with sight words but i really don't want to go down that rout. I was one of the children failed by this method. Unfortunately because my mum, with the best of intentions drilled into me so many flash cards it took school years to discover that i really couldn't read.

It is me that taught DS the letter sounds. He started to pick up the names from various toys and cartoons so I wanted to make sure he knew the sounds. He is very good at separating the name from the sound and never gets the two confused.

I tried a variation of your game today Mrz, and can I say that I love you.

I took the cards that school have given DS and found a suitable toy/picture for each one. We started with a dog and cat on the table, I showed him a card and asked him to sound it out. once he sounded it out I asked him which toy matched the sound. He was pretty good at it and could easily get all the words school had given. No idea if it will help, i wish school would give more info on their methods though.

OP posts:
rrbrigi · 17/09/2012 14:30

After you thought the phonics blending comes by itself. Some children get it earlier some children needs a lot more time. Really there is nothing you can do until they won't get it, that letters make the word. You can stimulate them, but you should wait until the first blending is coming itself. There is one very good play that I used to play with my son. If he knows the sounds you can do too. Probably you know that game it is called "I can spy with my little eye". So you can say I can spy with my little eye a thing that starting with m. Can you see it? If he says no, you can help him like this thing is in the kitchen, on the table. If he still does not know tell the first couple of him. Like m-m-mug. First you play this with the first letter until he get all of them right, than you play this with the last letter (g), than you play it together (first and last letter). At this stage you can ask him if he can hear any other sounds in the world mug. The first couple of time he might say there is no any other sounds, then you can say if there is no any other sound I would say mg and not mug. You can say the middle letter louder to help him to hear it. If he can hear all of the letter in the words (3-4 letters words), than it is blending and then you can show him how it works with the words that you write down. Blending does not come straight after knowing the sounds. There are a couple of more steps between them. But as I said they need to realize themselves that words are built up from letters (sounds).

Good luck you are on the right way.

lunar1 · 17/09/2012 21:12

I will probably have to avoid the i spy game with him. one of his obsessions is listing as many words as possible with the same letter. If i did this game he would never get past the first sound before he had listed 30 things beginning with m! he is getting better but only by sounding out the whole word.

OP posts:
Tgger · 17/09/2012 21:37

I'm a bit surprised they put him into reception to "read" age 3. Blimey! Why not just pass a few songbirds books to nursery to float around and do when appropriate. Ah well...

lunar1 · 17/09/2012 23:09

why would you be surprised? some of the reception children are just one month older, I have to trust that the school are doing what is right for him as an individual. Its walking 5 meters through the cloak room to the next class with children he knows as they are mixed for PE and share a playground, not sitting him down with a GCSE paper. it is 3 times a week for around 20 mins, not moving him into a class of 12 year olds, ah well...

OP posts:
SoundsWrite · 18/09/2012 09:00

I think that rrbrigi gives 'sound' advice! Grin What I did with my granddaughter (G) was to to say the sounds in (short) three-sound words making sure that the first sound was one you can hang on to/stretch out. So, as rrbrigi suggests, 'mmmm' 'u' 'g'. I would say to G, "I'm going to say the sounds in a word and you have to put them together to make a word that I can see in this room". At first, she didn't quite cotton on to what i wanted her to do, so I got her mother to play the game and model it. She soon caught on and before long we were going for walks saying things like "Now, I can see a 'ch' 'ur' 'ch'. What can I see?" And G would say 'church'.
Once they've mastered this, the words simply get a bit longer. However, you do need to say the sounds precisely and not add a sloppy 'uh' sound after every consonant sound. Say 'm' not 'muh'.
Age can also be a factor in this. I didn't try doing this with G until she was just past her fourth birthday but I did it with my own youngest daughter when she was a little past two-and-a-half. If the child can't do it after a bit of modelling, just leave it for a month or two before going back and trying again. And make it a fun game!

rrbrigi · 18/09/2012 11:23

I will probably have to avoid the i spy game with him. one of his obsessions is listing as many words as possible with the same letter. If i did this game he would never get past the first sound before he had listed 30 things beginning with m! he is getting better but only by sounding out the whole word.

Do not forget teach reading a child is not a weekend job. Of course you need to play phonics game with him a lot of time before he gets the idea. I played this game (with the first sound) with my son for months when he was 3. If he starts to list 30 things beginning with m (what is very good start, that is what we want him to recognize the letter in the beginning of the word), you can help him with describing the things. Like: this thing is on the table (so he knows where to look at) and it is red and has spots (so he knows how it looks like) and we drink tea from it (so he knows what is the work for that thing). Patient makes teaching easier. Remember how much time they need to learn walking, speaking, eating alone etc...

I would not recommend picture reading, because if they won't learn the phonics correctly their spelling won't be as good and they would struggle to write down a new word after hearing it. Of course there are a couple of words in English that you need to memorize by picture reading (look the word and learn it).

Also they do need to see the similarity in word that has similar beginning, but different in ending (e.g.: map, mat) or different in the middle (cat, cut) or with the same ending but different in the beginning (cat, hat). They need to recognize it by themselves, because what they can find out themselves it will stay with them forever and they can apply that knowledge more easily. Things that children can learn by themselves it is a lot stronger knowledge than what you teach them. Of course get the idea by themselves it might come a bit later than if you tell the answers for them. How you can help? Practice, practice, practice and clever questions that help them think what is going on. It is the same with math. I would not teach a child that 2+3=5. Instead of I would give him 3 apples and give 2 apples to myself and ask the child how many apples we have got. So he or she will understand the concept instead of just memorizing that 2+3 equals 5.

I would not recommend to go any further until he is absolutely ok with these (no 4,5,6 etc... letter words). Because if he learnt this he can use it with harder words as well.

And one very important suggestion and I know it sounds very criticizing; I did not mean to criticize you. Teaching the children to love reading and books is far more important in your son age than teaching proper reading. Do you teach him how the books look like (cover, title etc.), that every story has a beginning, middle and end. Can he tell back the story with his own words that you read to him? Can he tell a story if you put some pictures in front of him from the beginning to the end? That is the start for reading. A child who knows all of this is far more ahead than who knows the phonics. Because they need to understand what they reading (and you can teach this by letting them tell the story back to you, or let them tell a story what they can see on the picture) and need to be able to store these information in their brain and pull the information out in a later time when they need it. This is the start before you even mention phonics to them.

Until he enjoys no problem at all, but the first time when he is bored or even saying "I hate this" you should stop and wait, because he won't like reading in his whole life. Probably there is a reason why teachers start teach reading in Reception and not in nursery? If he won't like reading, even what he reads in the future he will forget it and won't use books for learning (like history books, biology books etc.).

Haberdashery · 18/09/2012 11:37

I think that is a brilliant post, rrbrigi.

CappuccinoCarrie · 18/09/2012 13:21

OP my DD was similar to your DC, in that she knew all the letters and (correct) phonic sounds but something just didn't 'click' with blending. Week one of reception and her teacher introduced the idea of Robot Phonics, and we've never looked back. It seems so simple I didn't understand how it worked, but there's something about putting a physical action with sounding out the letters that just really really worked for her.
In a nutshell, stick your arms out like a robot, bent at the elbow, one arm up, one down. As you sound out each phonic, move the arms robot style, so c-a-t would be three movements. Then you say them faster and faster but keep moving the hands with the sound, and then when they get it 'squash' the word together with your hands. Sounds ridiculous but I can't believe how well it works. DD is now quite a confident reader and year 1, if she's reading to herself on the sofa I'll sometimes see her use her arms to do a word with the robot.

Also in support of rrbrigi's post, there are loads of clues in the pictures of books as to what the story is about, and once kids understand that then you'll see them get to a tricky word and scan the page to see if they can get a clue for what it might be, for example DD got stuck on a word beginning with 't', saw a tiger in the picture, and correctly guessed tiger. Its one of the reasons why the first books have no words - children tell you the story from the pictures first.

Tgger · 18/09/2012 20:38

I'm just surprised because it seems unnecessary to me. And perhaps not to his advantage. I helped my DS a lot with reading once he was blending but actually the stage before that passed me by. I think he did have nursery teachers showing him how to do it and that was enough. The rest of the time I think he was busy playing. DD is 4 in November, she's enjoying I spy now and getting more interested but am happy to wait for Reception when she will be nearly 5 for any blending type exercises.

mrz · 18/09/2012 20:47

Pictures don't help a child to read tricky words, knowing how to decode the tricky parts helps

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