Are these signs of a real learning problem, or is it just our approach?

[ProbablyJustGas]

Or is it maybe just attention-seeking behavior?

Sorry this is long, but I could use some perspective on this from the more experienced folks here. Getting tired of worrying so much if we don't need to, and getting tired of feeling useless/neglectful if we do indeed need to worry.

Six-and-a-half year-old DSD is now back at school (a young P3), so we are trying to get back into a routine of "you read one, I'll read one" with the bedtime stories. It's not going that great so far - the progress she made during P2, which I raved about a few months ago, seems to have slid backwards a fair bit.

We have some ORT storybooks at home (Floppy's Phonics and Songbirds) for her to practice reading with. We didn't bust them out at all during summer break, but this week I found her a Stage 2 Songbirds story to read (she was on Stage 5 ORT at end of school, but I couldn't find the Stage 5 book we own).

The story I settled on should have been easy for her - all short vowels, no "sh" or "ch", one "ow" - but to start with, she was constantly sounding out every single word. Even "has" was "heh-aa-ss, has". At that point, DH stopped her to tell her that if she knew the word already, she didn't need to sound it out first, she could just say it. To which she replied, "I know, but I forgot this word." She also paused after every single word to look at the pair of us (she was sitting on DH's knee reading, I was sat next to him) and verify whether she was reading correctly. DH told her to just carry on, we would only stop her if she didn't read a word correctly, which we needed to do occasionally. She got lazy with one or two words (guessing "has" when it said "had" or "and" when it said something completely different). Forgot the sound "v" and called it "z" - "Viv" became "Ziz" - which was a bit startling because she's never done that before (although she used to mix up "m" and "w" all the time). She needed help (still???) with "now" and thought it was "neh-aw-weh... neh-aweh?"

Now here is where I'm confused. We got fed up with her constantly stopping, looking at us, getting distracted by the pictures, etc, and decided to take her off DH's knee and sit on the floor. She stayed on the bed and continued to read. Suddenly, the reading was a lot smoother. No more "heh-aa-ss". She had the same reaction to DH sitting on the floor once or twice in May/June as well, at the end of P2.

Last night, she decided to read "Princess Smartypants" to DH at bedtime, but figured out quickly that the reading would not be not as straightforward as ORT. She stopped trying and fell back on an old complaint, which is "The words are too small." Last year, we actually took her to the optometrist to get her eyes checked, because she was complaining about "too small" words so much, but the doc said she doesn't need glasses. Anyway, DH lost patience with her and snapped about words being the same whether they're large or small, so it shouldn't matter when she reads them. :( He had to apologize to her today.

DSD also occasionally forgets really common names for objects - words that are already in her vocabulary, like "table" or "fridge". She hadn't been doing this for a few months, but on Monday night forgot the name for "matches" and called them "you know, those lighty-up thingies that you light the candles with". Sometimes, rather than use words to say what she is thinking of, or use words to answer a question, she'll point to an object or try to mime the action. A year ago, she also used to constantly refer to objects as "that thing over there", but we started to push her for better descriptions (what color is it, is it on top of something, etc), so she doesn't do that as much anymore.

All of the stuff I've described above here isn't brand new - it's all been going on for the past couple of school years, and it looks like we're in for a third. We've spoken with the school about her reading before, and her teacher insisted that she was maybe a little behind because of her age, but not so behind that she flagged up any special needs intervention.

So... Are we just neurotic, impatient ogres and destroying her confidence while she reads? Are we lazy, incompetent parents who should have been cracking the whip with the reading aloud this summer? :( Is stumbling on "has" actually just a silly, attention-seeking thing? Or are there definitely signs of a learning difficulty here? All of the above?

Again, sorry about the length!

I don't know anything about dyslexia I'm afraid but if you think it may be related to confidence or performance anxiety, have you tried getting her to read to a pet or younger sibling or a favourite doll or cuddly toy.

This may have no bearing at all or be of no use BUT:
DS started school able to read fluently and with expression - no sounding out needed at all ( he was self taught I hasten to add... he has an ASD and can just read really well). However, after a few weeks at school he started to read in a really robotic voice and sounded out every single word because that is what he was expected to do as that is how you read... (This was his skewed logic!) This was with school books only. With his own books he read as beautifully as before..
I also suffer from performance anxiety when some one I love watches me do soemthing.. I used to act and had to ban my parents from letting me know when they were in the audience.. I can't park confidently if DH is in the car.... I can't parent if my mother is watching.... If they go away I can do all these things reasonably happily.
BTW I have huge word finding issues..... Generally when I'm feeling stressed.

there have been some cases where she'll get the sounds right on a simple word ("luh-ih-deh"), but say the wrong word to blend them ("let" instead of "lid) ..

The very first thing that struck me about this example was, is she actually 'saying' luh ih deh when she sounds out? Because there are two extra 'sounds' in there that aren't actually in the word 'lid'! Also, the /t/ sound is very close in articulation to the /d/ sound and if she does say the sound as 'deh' then she could well be muddled as to what the blended word should be.

I know it is quite difficult to say consonant sounds without an 'uh' on the end of them, (because consonants really don't have any 'sound') but it makes it a lot easier to blend words if the sounds you are blending are close to the sounds you hear in the blended word. The two most difficult consonants, in my opinion, are 'l' and 'r' because so many children seem to learn them as 'luh' and 'ruh', whereas, if you listen carefully and try it for yourself (say a word containing them very, very slowly) you will find that they actually sound more like 'ul' and 'ur' respectively. Children should be encouraged to say very 'pure' sounds (no 'uh' on the end!) as it makes blending so much easier.

The other thing that struck me is that there might (please remember that I am not an expert on auditory problems, I'm just thinking through what I would consider if I were working with a child who did this) be a slight hearing problem which makes it difficult for her to discriminate or correctly articulate very similar sounding phonemes. She doesn't have a history of glue ear does she?

Hmm. DH and I have talked about hearing. He doesn't think there is an issue, because on more than one occasion,in the room, and then thrown the conversation back in their faces days later. :-p But, he was open to getting her hearing tested just to rule it out. He doesn't think she was ever given a school hearing test before starting P1, or at least if she was, he wasn't informed by the school like he was for her NHS eye tests. He also said a few days ago that she did get ear infections as a baby, but I don't know if that was ever glue ear. She's also spent most of her childhood living in a flight path - my copy of Nuture Shock tells me that may affect things (I have far too many of these books....). APD has crossed my mind too.

It's hard to write accurately exactly what she says when she's sounding out, but they are consonants with syllables. She does say "reh" instead of "rrrr", "wuh/weh" instead of "wwwww" (there is no way to type that!). I try to keep the consonant sounds as pure as possible when I say them, but will try a bit harder. Maybe it will be easier for both of us if I slow down a bit. And I'll try to get DH on board with that too - I've heard him saying "reh", "leh" and "curly keh" before.

Thing is, I know she uses the order of phonics to memorize some of her "tricky" words, which I didn't think was the point of them? When she learned to read "said", she learned by saying "sss-ah-ih-duh: said." We asked her yesterday out on the street if she could read the word "Wait" on the crosslight. She took a good look at it and said, "Wuh-ah-ih-tuh, 'What'". But maybe that was just getting fed up with quizzed - she read "Jellyfish" with some help a few minutes prior to that, and wrote "roks and sand" by herself. Her writing is very phonetic but it's much better than it used to be, and much more legible.

Blah, I don't get it. She was having trouble with "ai, ow, ea" et al last year, but we raised this with the school and she seemed to have a better grip on it by the end of June. Maybe DH and I are impatient!

Woops. That should say, "He doesn't think there is an issue, because on more than one occasion, she's listened very mutely while adults have chatted around her as though she wasn't in the room, and then thrown the conversation back in their faces days later. :-p

However, I've now nagged DH to get hold of the school nurse and investigate whether said P1 hearing test was ever given to DSD.

Doesn't sound like a hearing thing to me. :)

But here's an Auditory Discrimination test you can do with her.

A standard hearing test won't check auditory discrimination test anyway.

Thing is, I know she uses the order of phonics to memorize some of her "tricky" words, which I didn't think was the point of them?

This takes a bit of unpicking! 'Tricky words' are words which are decodable but have a tricky sound spelling (grapheme) in them. In 'said' the 's' and the 'd' are perfectly 'regular', it is the 'ai' which unexpectedly spells an /e/ rather than an /ay/ sound. These words should always be taught by sounding out and blending.

When she learned to read "said", she learned by saying "sss-ah-ih-duh: said."

If the school had been doing the phonics properly she should have learned that the 'ai' says /e/ (leg) in the word, she shouldn't have been left to sound it out letter by letter. It's brilliant that she was preferring to use sounding out and blending to read the word, but either the teacher hadn't made it clear, or your DSD hadn't understood, that the 'ai' stood for one sound.

We asked her yesterday out on the street if she could read the word "Wait" on the crosslight. She took a good look at it and said, "Wuh-ah-ih-tuh, 'What'".

Which makes me even more suspicious about the phonics teaching she is getting. By the end of Y1 she should be very familiar with 2 or more letters spelling one sound.

Doesn't sound like a hearing thing to me. smile

Why not, IB?

Rather than getting your DSD to read alternate books, why don't you read alternate pages? I still find this the best way to get my DD (7.9) to read beyond her comfort zone.

Reason it doesn't sound like a hearing thing is because more and more it sounds like a teaching thing.

I agree with Indigo it sounds as if she hasn't been taught more than basic phonics.

Might try that too, thank you Bonsoir. She's off to Mum's for the next 7 days, but that gives us some time to calm down and take a fresher approach when she's back with us.

@maizieD: Thank you, I will show your tips to DH so that we both have a better way to help her.

@IB: Thanks, I might see if she's up for that sometime next week too.

Well... DH had suggested flash cards ever since she mixed up V and Z, and I've been looking into Toe by Toe to see what that's all about. Maybe we will have to just drill her, if she has been badly taught.

She was a bit more secure with two-letter sounds just a few weeks ago. She remembers "th" and "sh". But yes, a lot of her two-letter sounding out is the two separate letters and then remembering the new sound. The only ones she doesn't have trouble with is when they're the same (ee, oo, ll). Except for "all", she still pronounces that like "al".

We'll see what her mum says. Maybe her Other House alter ego is a genius. Probably a little less picked apart. Here's hoping. :-p

Rather than Toe by Toe look at Bear Necessities

Mrz is right bear necessities / dancing bears is way better than toe by toe.

If after a few months of bear necessities she still struggles to remember her sounds I would be concerned.

Hi, If you took her last year for an eye test and she's still having problems, she needs another one. (maybe with a different one)
Optometrists would check convergence plus a range of basic muscle balance tests. If you mention reading problems they will check more thoroughly.
You don't develop primary dyslexia having previosuly read well.

My DS1 is a similar age, his reading his much better in the morning than the evening.

I agree with Indigo it sounds as if she hasn't been taught more than basic phonics.

I must confess, mrz and IB, that that's the way my thinking was going, as well, but I didn't want to appear to be too simplistic about it all!

I still think there might be a teeny hearing problem in there as well. Or, is it accent? I have only recently realised that the OP is in Scotland. Is there a Scottish/English mix of accents in the household, by any chance? That might well account for her getting her 'lids' and 'lets' mixed up

I always suggest parents rule out basic sight and hearing problems as a first step of course more extensive examination may be required if children continue to fail to progress.

There is a posh Scottish and hybrid Amero-Scottish accent in the one house, plus a semi-posh Scottish and working class Scottish accent in the other house. For the most part, kiddo is leaning towards poshy-Scot (DH is "Dah-dee"), although she does say, "Yaas!" once in awhile to celebrate.

We'll have a good look at Bear Necessities (thank you, again) and try drilling her a bit on sounds again, with some better pronunciation, and see if there's any improvement while we see what her teachers send her way. And probably look into ruling out basic physical stuff while we're at it.

Jeezo, wish her report card in June had been clearer. The new Scottish ones are really vague and kinda designed to placate parents rather than inform them. If I'd known "First Level - Developing" on practically everything save gym class meant "this kid really should not be allowed a summer break, you know, flashcards recommended" we would have done that!

Another set of readers you might like to consider is BRI from www.piperbooks.co.uk.
I would agree with Bear Necessities as my second choice, but not Toe by Toe for a child this age with motivation issues.
As an early years teacher, and a specialist literacy tutor, BRI is always my first choice for young children for the quantity of practice in the 'how to' of blending and developing fluency with basic code, and because children like them; subsequently ARI is available, also from piper.
Even if something different is coming from school, perhaps more challenging for the child, it does no harm, and much good for fluency, to be reading stuff at a simpler level than one is currently learning in class.

I thought dyslexia as well. But it could include an eye tracking as well as letter recognition problem. Get her assessed and keep practicing her reading. No assessments are ever done without including a hearing check. I am the mum of a Dyslexic son.

I am interested in this concept of dyslexia and food intolerances. My son was diagnosed with coeliac disease aged 4 and probably had this since very young. We certainly noticed very delayed milestones and marked dyslexia traits which in my observation were entirely due to his condition. He has been gluten free for 6 months now and he is improving although it is difficult to tell how things will pan out. There is very little research in this area but there is a recognition that for example coeliac children do display signs and are sometimes erroneously diagnosed with ADSD.

I think there is some validity in the idea that a severe food intolerance can affect learning and behaviour.

In the evening, she's likely to be tired. How about her doing her reading earlier in the day and you/dp reading the bedtime stories? Also, if you're both sitting there, especially if your dh has been known to snap/criticise, she may be a bit nervous. How about you taking turns to listen to her reading instead of both at once?

I just would like to tell you something that I am not so proud of. My son started R this September. Everybody would like to be there child the best (me too). When he got his first reading book I told him that come and read the book. He did not want. I forced him to do it. I was shouting at him, using words that I should not (and believe me since then I have a twinge of conscience (not sure this is the right word, looked from dictionary)). I was terrible with him, I lost my patient, because I though he HAS to do it. Since then of course I apologized, he forgave me (but I could not forgive myself) and everything is ok. Next day we read the same book, I was not angry, I praised him every word that he read correctly and it was a happy time for him. Since that terrible afternoon, when I ask him to come and read with me he tells me every time "but mummy promise you won't be angry with me". That terrible afternoon was only a one off and never ever will happen again, but my son never ever will forget it and he might won't like reading as much as he would like without that awful day.

Couple of things that I learnt and use. Being angry with them because they cannot read a word (even if they knew before) won't help, patient and praise them when reading will make the steps ahead. Never forget they are so tiny. You daughter only would start the school (in first year) in other countries (rest of Europe).

I wish I could go back to the time and correct my mistake. I did not tell this story to criticize you or your husband at all. I just told it, so you can see other people can lost the track as well.

Other way I agree too that you should go with her and see a doctor to do a proper eye test.