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Primary education

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6 yr old struggling with subtraction

16 replies

bigredDi · 23/08/2012 10:35

My 6yr old DD has just returned to school and now in P2 (Scotland). Last year was her first year at school and was in a P1/2 composite class with only 5 P1's amongst 20 P2's. She's only been back for a week but they've had some sums to do for homework (adding and subtraction) and I find that she has to use fingers or blocks for almost all adding where the answer is more than 8 and the concept of subtraction she's really struggling with, we're practising each night now but I'm wondering if anyone has had similar problems or suggestions of how to help it click for her. She's a bright, confident girl and doing well with reading and writing but numbers seem tricky for her. According to her report at the end of P1 she was 'level 1 secure' for maths. But if she can't subtract easily can that be true? Or do they not do much subtraction in P1? I'm worried her difficulties have gone unnoticed in the composite class last year - or am I expecting too much of her for her age? any advice would be appreciated.

OP posts:
BarbarianMum · 23/08/2012 12:22

This is just my opinion (not qualified in teaching or anything).

I think using blocks/fingers etc is entirely fine at age 6 and extremely necessary if the concept of subtraction is giving her problems. So when you practise keep it really simple at first (provide 20 blocks then do lots of just taking 1 away til she's really confident then slowly increase the difficulty). Can she count backwards easily? If not practise that too.

If you gave her 12 blocks and asked her to take away 5 and give you the answer could she do it? That's much more important than being able to deal with 12-5= off the top of her head.

bigredDi · 23/08/2012 14:50

Thanks BarbarianMum, yes she can count backwards from 20 and she can do the take away sums using blocks and smaller take away sums like 2-1 in her head if I remind her to imagine it's sweets, like you have two sweets and I take away 1 how many do you have left? but if I ask her what is 3 - 1 it's like just the numbers themselves are too abstract for her. I was perfectly happy that she was using blocks and fingers until she came home on Monday saying the teacher said they shouldn't need to use blocks in P2 so now I'm worried that she's behind the others in the class when she can't do it very well without them. I guess I'm just trying to find out if other peoples 6yr olds still use blocks for sums which would reassure me a bit Smile

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MrsTruper · 23/08/2012 15:20

I remember my daughter (now 7 ) used to use a number line. Then she did lots of practise counting up (from smaller number to larger number) and counting down (from larger number to smaller number) to get the difference...and she had to get the hang of not counting the number you are starting from. Hope that helps.

mrz · 23/08/2012 15:28

Does she understand that subtraction is the opposite to addition?

So if 4+6=10 then 10-4=6?

bigredDi · 23/08/2012 16:30

Thanks,
yes she understands subtraction is counting backwards and just last night I was showing her that if she knows 2 + 3 = 5 then she can see that 5 - 3 = 2. Maybe she just needs more practise. I will try using the number line mrsTruper suggested as DD mentioned that the teacher was talking about number lines yesterday so maybe they are just trying to move the children on from blocks to numberlines rather than expecting them to be able to do it all in their heads. My Ds is 12 and I can't remember what they did with him in P1 n P2 but then they change teaching practises all the time. For instance they don't use the letterland system anymore, plus DS seemed to sail through primary school and picked everything up very quickly so perhaps that's why I'm anxious that my DD isn't.

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mrz · 23/08/2012 16:43

No I don't mean counting backwards ... sorry didn't explain very well

Does she know for example the pairs of numbers that add up to 10 instantly?
and can she use that knowledge to quickly give the answer for a take away from 10?

That is what we would be looking for in Y1 in England and although she's in Scotland with a different curriculum the skills are essentially the same.

bigredDi · 23/08/2012 17:00

No mrz she can't. This is what I mean. The doesn't know her 'houses' off by heart she still has to think about it and after 5 she gets stuck and uses her fingers a lot. I think if she can rhyme all the houses up to 10 off then she'd be able to do as you say, and just work out the take away sum. Do you think then I should really work on her additions to ten until she knows them instantly before going on to subtraction? I'm surprised her P1 teacher last year didn't raise any concerns with her counting if she should be able to do this by now! I don't think the composite class was good for her, I think the 5 P1's were always working together on their own with very little supervision and as there is one very clever little girl in that group I think she was jumping in with the answers quickly and the other weren't having to think about it Hmm

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mrz · 23/08/2012 17:12

I would focus on knowing the pairs for adding because it does make calculation much easier

RosemaryandThyme · 24/08/2012 11:18

There is an episode of Number Jacks that gives the pairs that add to 10 - can be bought on Amazon with several other episodes or might be on iplayer.

bigredDi · 24/08/2012 17:05

Thanks, I'll defo have a look for that numberjacks. We worked on house of 4 and 5 last night and she seems to be getting it now (yeah). Was rhyming off the pairs on the way to school and able to give me the answers right away when i then asked her what is 5 - 3 etc so will be working on the pairs that add up to 6 tonight. Thanks for your advice ladies Smile

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beezmum · 26/08/2012 00:04

My sister's dd had similar problems. It turned out she didn't understand what was meant by the phrase 'one more' or 'add one' which they should grasp in their first year of school. I know that seems unlikely as she could count blocks or fingers to add two groups and was bright with two years of schooling and it was a total surprise that she didn't when we asked her.
It helped to explain that 'one more' meant the 'next number'. Number lines are fab too. With my ds I count up. 1 - what is one more? 2. 2 - what is one more? 3. I also count back from ten using my fingers going down and saying 10' one less is nine. Nine one less is eight etc and taking away fingers as I go. Sometimes instead of one more I say 'add one' so he knows this means the same thing. When they are clear on what 'one more' really means then you can see if they can do 'two more', then 3 more.
Learning number pairs is fab but do check there isn't a more fundamental gap in her understanding.

PastSellByDate · 27/08/2012 18:14

Hi bigredDi:

I think mrz is correct in suggesting that practice on what numbers make sums is a help - but our school made the mistake on focusing on number bonds only for 10 and for 20.

We found playing card games where you use Ace as 1 and Jack as 10 - then pick a card (stack the deck so it's numbers >5) and then practice making that number.

You can start with all numbers >3 (4 - 10) and then just take out the cards greater than the number you're playing with.

So for 7 - you need all cards Ace through 7.

flip a card and then ask what plus this number = 7.

If it's 7 - the answer is 0
If it's 6 - the answer is 1
If it's 5 - the answer is 2
etc...

You can use smarties, M&Ms, raisins, etc... to help visualise the answer. So if your DD gets stuck count out 7 raisins - then say what was the card we flipped over - DD says 5 (for example) - separate out 5 raisins and ask how many are left (2) - so 5 + 2 =7.

I found that by practicing all the number bonds between 5 - 9 and 11 - 19 really reinforced addition skills.

Once that's solid - you can play in reverse.

Other games are playing 21 (for >10 addition skills) or playing snakes and ladders by adding multiple rolls of dice together (so add 2 rolls together or 3 rolls togehter - game also goes much faster - Hurrah!). You can also play snakes and ladders backwards & again use multiples to speed it up (make bigger numbers).

Some nice free on-line addition/ subtraction games here:

Cool maths for kids has some good addition/ subtraction games: www.coolmath-games.com/1-number-games-addition-subtraction.html also lesson advice here: www.coolmath4kids.com/addition/index.html or www.coolmath4kids.com/subtraction/index.html

BBC numbertime games: www.bbc.co.uk/schools/numbertime/games/index.shtml

KS1 bitesize number pyramid game: www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/ks1/maths/addition_and_subtraction/play/

& from the US PBS Kids addition/ subtraction games here: www.zoodles.com/free-online-kids-games/pbs-kids_addition--subtraction

HTH

airedailleurs · 28/08/2012 10:50

I have just discovered that my DD (about to enter yr 4) doesn't understand partitioning and recombining subtractions (the technique used to subtract e.g. 36 from 42,). I have gone over the steps with her several times but she just can't get it! She is otherwise good at maths and has never had this type of block before...does anyone have any tips to help please? many thanks

bigredDi · 28/08/2012 17:50

Thanks everyone for your suggestions, she loves playing board games so will maybe do a bit more of those with the double dice and she'll be adding without even noticing Smile. We will hopefully get there, I'm noticing a difference already just with the extra practicing we're doing theis last week.

OP posts:
maree1 · 28/08/2012 23:14

All the advice advice about pairs is sound. Card games, too, will help. And you might want to keep the number games practical by including the use of real coins .

PastSellByDate · 29/08/2012 14:11

Hi - just to add to what maree1 has suggested. Yes use coins for real money addition/ subtraction but be careful not to use coins to count different amounts (so using 5 p pieces where you're counting each one as just one). This can ultimately lead to a bit of confusion. Stick to unnumbered items like m&ms, smarties, grapes, raisins, buttons, etc...

Now airedailleurs in terms of partitioning - what your DD needs to visualise is that 1 ten = ten units.

So first off have her look at a two digit number - say forty-five (45).

Explain that there is a units columns (the '5' column in this example) and a tens column (the '4' in this example). Each column is counting up different things (first column by ones and second column by tens - if you went to larger numbers third column [hundreds' column] by hundreds and fourth column [thousands' column] by thousands etc...).

It's really important to explain that there is only room for a single digit in each column so once you get over 9 units, you have to make tens - same applies to over 10 tens (need to make hundreds), over 100 hundreds (need to make thousands), etc... You can show this fairly easily by just writing out the numbers - it's clear that after 9 there are two columns and after 99 there are three columns, etc...

Now start having her read numbers through with you and vary the question: Sometimes ask how many units? And sometimes ask how many tens?

Once she's clear on what is a unit and what is a ten, start with subtracting (but pick two items - grapes and raisins, red legos and blue legos, white checkers and black checkers, etc...). Explain that the first item = 1 and the second item = 10.

Then do a problem but also visually.

So, for example - 45 - 33 (we're starting with subtractions that don't involve carrying over).

Lay out four grapes (= 4 x 10 = 40) and 5 raisins (5 x 1 = 5) for the '45'

Lay out 3 grapes and 3 raisins for the '33'.

Now start with the units (in this case raisins). Can you take 3 raisins from 5 raisins (in other words is 3 bigger than 5 - no - so go ahead). 5 - 3 = 2 (set aside for later - we tend to use a fancy bowl for the answers). [by the way you can eat the 3 grapes you're taking away].

Now look at the tens (in this case the grapes). Can you take 3 grapes from 4? Yes - o.k. so what is 4 - 3? Eat three grapes and you should have 1 grape or 10. Move grape to the answer plate and total up using your grape/ raisin codes.

The plate should have 1 grape and 2 raisins
1 grape = 10
2 raisins = 2
10 + 2 makes 12

(if it helps you can have her check the answer - again visually by using grapes and raisins for 33 (3 each). Add the two numbers together and you should get the original number (45) you were subtracting from.

When your DC is working soundly with subtracting two digit numbers from each other without 'borrowing' - then introduce numeric annotation (writing out the problem).

This can be down horizontally or vertically. Us oldies were taught vertically and to work from far right to left - but today in schools problems are presented horizontally. So this is up to you. However, I've found with DD1 she 'got it' faster with the good old fashioned vertical subtraction method.

Regardless, start writing out the problems and then having her work through them with just the numerals.

Once that's secure - introduce 'borrowing'. Return to grapes/ raisins (or whatever you decide upon) and really stress that you are exchanging 1 ten for 10 units (this is the bit they often don't quite get).

So for example give the problem 23 - 19.

Set out 2 grapes and 3 raisins for 23 (grapes = 10 and raisins = 1)

Set out one grape and 9 raisins for 19.

Have two plates for each number and an answer plate. Have extra raisins available for exchanging 1 grape for 10 raisins (1 ten for 10 units).

So 23 - 19 = ?

Start with units. 3 - 9 = ? Can you do this? No - 9 is more than 3 - so we need to borrow some units from our neighbour (the tens column).

exchange one of the grapes from 23 for 10 raisins.
So instead of 23 = 2 grapes and 3 raisins - you should now have 1 grape (=10) and 13 raisins (=13) [10 +13 = 23].

Now go back to the unit problem but this time you have 13 raisins - 9 raisins = ?

The answer is 4 raisins (4 units).

Set the raisins aside to the answer plate.

Now you should have 1 grape left on each plate. 1 grape - 1 grape (10 - 10) will equal 0.

So no grapes move to the answer plate. Now look at the answer plate - you have 4 raisins. So 23 - 19 = 4.

Now teach her how to check the answer. Read the problem in reverse -
4 + 19 = 23. Is that right. Hold the larger number in your head (in this case 19) and count up 4. 19 (in head), 20, 21, 22, 23. Yep 19 + 4 = 23 so 23 - 4 = 19.

Keep practicing with visual clues until you feel they really get it and then move to simply doing the numeric problems.

HTH

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