Am I mad to choose DS's school without ever visiting it?

[threeleftfeet]

We're househunting. We've visited the schools near us and know the ones we like.

But a lovely house has come up in a place we hadn't considered.

I know nothing about the local school, except the following:

It's rated good with Ofsted.
It's a village school, and CofE.

We're atheists and if I had a choice I'd send him to a secular school - and indeed the next nearest school in the nearby town is rated outstanding and is secular. However I feel strongly that if your DC are going to feel part of village life it's probably not a great idea send to ship them out to a school in town when there's a good one on your doorstep which all the other DCs go to.

If we want this house we're going to need to act fast I think.

When looking at schools in our town i felt that the ethos was important and that's not really something that's easy to get a good feel for without actually visiting is it?

Am we mad to consider it? How do I find out what the school's really like without visiting it? (We don't know anyone in that village).

I can't believe that people still think there are secular schools in UK! They are non denominational and they all have to have collective worship of a broadly Christian nature. Having supply taught in countless schools there is very little difference. A C of E school may go to church occasionally and may have prayers at extra times and may see the vicar more often.
I would never choose a school without seeing it.

An OFSTED report only offers a snapshot of the day, and although is a useful tool to help decision-making, it shouldn't - in my opinion - be the basis for a decision. Yes, you should go and see the school because it is really important to get a feel for it.

It doesn't really matter if your child doesn't start on 5th September, what matters is that they are at the right school. If I had strong views on religion I would want to have a first hand idea of what was influencing my child. Take the pressure off yourself, have a look at the schools, find the right house in the right area and don't work to the start of term deadline. We moved our four children to new schools in new areas during a half-term and it was all fine.

Good luck.

As IndogoBell says-her non denominational school may well go to church and have the vicar in too.

Sorry Indigo

Threeleftfeet "I will be very clear that it's just a story" that's your beliefs not your childs.

I love the fact my dc do RE at school, dd finds it fascinating and comes home and tells me she might be Jewish when she grows up, or Christian etc. She loves hearing all the story's and learning about cultures. I don't see it as any different to how she has learnt about roman or eygyptian gods in history.

Dd is 7 and knows that some people think its all a story, and some people believe in different religions. We've told them there are no rights/wrongs and no one really knows, you have to choose what you believe in, if anything.

Our dc used to go to a CofE school (Ofsted outstanding) and yes, lots of religious stuff, praying, heaven and hell, and it was forbidden to talk about things like Big Bang theory .....

State schools also have a lot of Christian stuff but don't deny Big Bang theory etc.

We do have a choice as we can chose a different house in town, near the non-religious, Ofsted-outstanding school which I know well. I prefer the house in the village though!

We've been looking for 6 months, and we're really pushed to find what we need (a 3 bed) on our budget.

I'm not brave enough to simply let both the houses we've seen slip through our hands!

We're atheists with our boys at the village school, which is CofE. We'd have had to travel into the nearest town to find a non-CofE school, and as others have said no school is secular anyway.

My reasons - we are in a village, all the village children go to the village school. It's great to be able to walk to school rather than get in the car. All their friends are there. They are happy at the school. I have no idea what the Ofsted rating is.

I wouldn't say my children are atheists, yet - just as I don't think children can be described as Christian - what they mean is that they are from a Christian family, or an atheist family. I'm assuming they can make their own minds up. I went to a CofE primary for similar reasons, it obviously didn't have much effect on me! Son 1 (aged 7) is a scientist, he likes to read science books and has told his teacher all about the big bang and evolution. Son 2 (aged 5) currently believes the stories they are telling him at school.

"Also, there are far, far, far more important things to get your knickers in a twist about. Eg whether or not they learn to read. "

Do you have to be so aggressive?!

Religion is not our only consideration - but it is a marked difference between the two schools we're considering. It's the way the conversation has gone and I'm finding it useful to explore this aspect.

"A CofE education ... certainly won't turn them Christian." See I'm not convinced of that! If you're taught something as truth as a child, surely some of them will believe it?!!

"My reasons - we are in a village, all the village children go to the village school. It's great to be able to walk to school rather than get in the car. All their friends are there."

Exactly, those are the reasons that - if we go for this house - we'll send DS to the village school.

our local school is not C of E but one of the governors is the local vicar so DS1 does get taught a lot of bible stories as fact and has visits to church. I would prefer that not to happen but not to the extent of moving from a school that is 2 minutes from our house.

What we say is that nobody knows if there is a God or not. Mrs X at school thinks there is and so does Auntie A but Mammy and daddy don't, what does he think? Most of his interest has been in what happens after you die, especially after the hamster died. Again we say Auntie A believes you go to heaven to be with God, Grandma believes you can choose be a new baby or an animal, Daddy believes that all the atoms that make you get turned into other things so part of you becomes a worm, part of you a star, part a cloud, part a tree. And we ask him what he thinks would happen. It seems to be working so far and his own personal belief system is a fascinating mix.

I wouldn't worry about it being C of E - IME most village schools are C of E because historically the local church would have been responsible for educating local children (whereas in Towns, where populations have grown, the state has built more schools).

As others have said, all Primary Schools are theoretically C of E in this country, and many 'non religious' county primaries have links to a local church and will have prayers at assembly. A certain amount of religion has always been a part of education in schools in the UK, but we are hardly a country of fanatics.

I am not sure of your DC's age, but I would be on the phone to the local council, 1) To find out about school places and 2) Because there might be staff at school who you could contact to arrange a visit, even if school hasn't started yet.

To be honest, I have never lived anywhere where there was a choice of schools anyway - always just one local primary school, take it or leave it. (Or in London, don't take it because there are no places, but that is another thread...)

" "I will be very clear that it's just a story" that's your beliefs not your childs."

Yes, but in the same way that Christian / Muslim / Hindu parents teach their children about their religion as fact, I will be teaching my DCs about science and the universe without a god, as fact.

I'm not agnostic - I am sure there is no god. Please respect my beliefs! I am not going round telling religious people not to teach their religions and culture to their DCs.

When DS is old enough he can make up his own mind. In the meantime I'll be telling him in no uncertain terms, that religious stories should not be taken as fact! I would much rather he be atheist than religious. Why wouldn't I?!

spiffysquiffyspiggy that's a nice approach :)

DS is 3.7, so we don't have to put down his school choice till January.

But the house move will effectively mean we're choosing his school now.

"Our dc used to go to a CofE school (Ofsted outstanding) and yes, lots of religious stuff, praying, heaven and hell, and it was forbidden to talk about things like Big Bang theory ....."

I find that very worrying!

I expect it's the extreme though? i thought the Church of England was largely accepting of scientific facts and taught the creations story as a parable these days?

But if DS did end up in a school like that I'm not sure how we'd handle it. I certainly wouldn't be able to let it pass. It'd either end up in lots of conflict with the school and/or pulling him out of the school. Not ideal!

*creation, not creations!

Actually, thinking about it, there is one difference that can be a problem if your child's school is a not v. good C of E school - because the church is involved with the governing of the school, not just parent governors, it can be more tricky to influence changes.

A county primary head is responsible to the parent governors, a C of E head is more able to say "Well thats just the way we do things around here". (Obviously you could have a rubbish board of parent governors, but at least you have more chance of becoming one of them than becoming a bishop, for instance!)

merrymouse that's an interesting point, thanks.

Thanks threeleftfeet, it seems to be working. We started off by saying that they were stories but given that DH's Auntie is v religious we didn't want him to start a debate with her over sunday lunch . We've found that this way he has developed an open approach to different beliefs. I went to a Catholic junior school (again 2 mins from the family house- laziness runs in our family) and I am most definitely not religious.

I don't think I could do a senior school that taught creationism as fact- that'd be where I had to draw a line. Infants and juniors I could just about live with. while exposing them at home to lots and lots of science programmes

Each to their own - I just like my dc to find their own beliefs, I don't tell them anything involving religion as fact

My dc are at a private school so non-denominational anyway.

mariammariam good idea thanks :)

There are two 'technical' levels of 'CofE'ness in schools.

This link is quite useful in explaining the differences.

'Plain vanilla' C of E schools ('VC' or voluntary controlled) receive no funding from the church. Although there are one or more 'foundation governors' linked to the church, they are in a minority (we have 1, and she is a retired GP who attends the local church, rather than anyone with a church position). They will teach the same RE curriculum as a non C of E school. The level of their 'C of E'ness will be down to the head. In a village, if the village school is C of E it is often the case that they are of this type and that they are not specifically 'churchy' at all and are indistinguishable from a non-C of E school in another village.

I teach in a VC school, and am both the RE co-ordinator and a very informed agnostic. I teach RE as an academic subject, and am very happy to use the formulation 'Christians believe' when talking about matters of christian faith, in the same way as I talk about 'Muslims believe' when teaching about Islam. I am also the Science co-ordinator, and am very happy to discuss the Big Bang and the theory of evolution, as well as to discuss in history why the Victorians got so upset about Darwin...

'Voluntary aided' (VA) schools are technocally much more linked with the church. they receive a small amount of funding from the church, a majority of the governors are foundation governors and they can teach their own RE syllabus, which may well be much more 'Cof E' in character.

Non C of E schools must teach RE. This must be according to the agreed syllabus for their diocese (google your county + agreed syllabus). they must also have a daily act of worship which is essentially Christian in character. You do have the right to opt your child out of RE and acts of worship if you wish.

DS goes to a CofE school. There is a bit more RE than his previous 'ordinary' primary which did seem quite Christian anyway and here the vicar is chair of governors. However they have looked at Judaism this last year and the year above visited a Hindu temple. I just remind DS that we should respect that different people believe different things and believe in a variety of gods so diluting the message.

The RE syllabus has to be either be the county one or the Diocesian one. In my Diocese at least the Diocesian one is very broad, at my kids Very Christian C of E teaches a very broad curriculum. My youngest quite fancies becoming Jewish because she likes the food, they also have lots of visitors from a wide range of churches and other religions.
All schools have to have parent governors.