Curious re secondary levels

[madasamarchhare]

Ok so my 2 still at primary so early to think about this but already in yr 1 and 3 it's all about levels. So out of curiosity what level are children expected or average at the end of ks3 and what does that equate to in terms of gcse grade? Tia

A child who is getting a level 5 at the end of KS2 will be predicted a C grade for GCSE, in that subject.

End of KS3 levels will vary enormously from subject to subject, because they will have studied different subjects for different lengths of time. Eg, some have taken up a second foreign language in Year 8.

It really is hard to tell. In ds's school, they can do triple science (top set) if they have a 6b or above, but some of them have gained level 8.

There must be a huge difference between a level 5 in primary school and the same level in secondary school as I think a level 5a is considered average in a lot of subjects at the end of KS3. They can certainly still hope to get at least a grade C
at GCSE from this level.

@Tiggytape: For KS2 level 5's my understanding was predicted grades of A/A (your post made me panic slightly as DS got all 5's and will need A/A for the uni's I'd like him to aim for).

I believe also that at 4c, something like only 45% of kids go on to achieve level C's for GCSE's, which is why Gove wanted to increase the threshold. Anyway this link looks at both KS2 and KS3 expected grades.

www.northdurhamacademy.co.uk/65/assessment-recording-and-reporting

No of course, life has no guarantees, more just concerned with the issue of probability.

Plus, we were fortunate that our ds has got into rather top comprehensive and his sats results means he is likely to be in the top set. So looking at past results, which is all we have to go by, I once again look at the likelihood of receiving the top grades by seeing what percentage of those kids received A/A* over the last few years. I appreciate there are always exceptions to every rule as in, a child who got level 3, brought up in a rough area and went of Oxford, and thank God for that (in fact JK Rowling apparently only got a level 4 in english and one would assume at least a level 6 - if they were in existence in those days). Conversely, there is the privately educated Marlborough kid who ended up on the streets. For me it's how likely, based on what's been achieved so far and what extra help may or may not be needed along the way.

"JK Rowling apparently only got a level 4 in english"

?????

She's as old as me! They didn't have SATS in our day. They were only brought in a few years ago!

@Tiggy - I see what you mean, with regards to the working at an advanced level. I guess all they've done is track the kids results from KS2 to GCSE's and have come up with a likelihood figure. True to say also, my nephew's brain, although privately educated all his life, didn't kick in until year 8 and scored an A and B for a couple of GCSE's taken early.

Mmmm, I see what you mean too with regards to the KS3 teachers being given a stick, when environment is so key too. We had to transfer from private to state. Wasn't a very good one and definitely a more rowdier experience which meant it was a struggle to keep him on top. This was why his secondary school environment was so important to us, to enable him to work to his full above average potential. Indeed, a teacher can't be made accountable, if kids are jumping off the tables like possessed loola's which was the case in his school. Gosh, think this is the first time, I've defended a teacher (sorry, have had such bad experiences, as well as the odd good one I hasten to add, with poor teachers).

And yes, my DS is the same as yours, just finished primary.

@Baloon my son told me his teacher told the class this. Not done any research myself, will look into.

@Ballon Unless of the course the teacher did some sort of conversion based on what was in existence at the time. We were given levels, 1,1,1 or 1,2,2 and the like in my days. Refuse to call myself old though:)

A friend of mine's DS has just got a Level 4 for his end of KS3 (year 9) English grade. She said she has been told that equates to a D at GCSE.

I have no factual basis for this but as the D of E says: "Level 5/6 is the level expected of most 14 year olds" I would assume that a high 5 or low 6 at the end of KS3 would mean that when they take their GCSEs, they'll probably get a C. A high 6 a B, and 7+ an A or A*

The reason for my italics is that you sometimes see, if you do an internet search, "if your 12 year old DC got a level 7 that's the equivalent of a C at GCSE." It's easy to interpret that as saying a 12 year old who is Level 7 now will achieve a C grade in 4 years' time when they take their GCSE. It actually means that if they took the GCSE NOW they would be likely to get a C. It can be confusing.

Happy to be contradicted - hopefully some teachers will be along to clarify.

Usually KS3 targets are the KS2 results plus 2 - so if you get a 4b in year 6 you will be predicted a 6b in year 9. However, the targets are also affected by CATS and Fischer Family Trust data, so for non SATS subjects (like history & French) targets will be made up from many factors. Year 9 targets then give GCSE targets so a level7/8 will give a target of A/A*, a 6 = A/B, a 5 = C etc. However, as others have said, these are targets, and many things can happen in KS4 to get better or worse grades - like a bit of work !!

The general very rough rule of thumb is that if they achieve Level 4 in Yr 6 then they will go on to get Cs or above in GCSE and if they achieve Level 5 in Yr 9 (and properly, not only just) then they should get Cs in GCSe, although really by Yr 9 I would expect average children to be Level 6.

Balloonslayer - a lvl 4 at the end of Y9 doesn't equate to a 'D' grade at GCSE NOW. It did when the courses were modular, but as the year group that have just finished Y9 will be the first to sit the new 'linear' exams, most schools have downgraded expected results based on end of KS3 levels, so that a level 4 at the end of Y9 will result in an 'F' grade at best.

I have had this with DD, her predicted grades being downgraded 2 grades on transfer of data from modular GCSE's to linear.

Apparently most Secondaries haven't yet completed this task...

Though under modular, DD's level 4's did equate to a 'D' grade at GCSE.

So it is possible that your friend's DS may not achieve that 'D' grade, as he will be sitting linear exams...

tiggy don't quote me on this, but I believe that secondary schools will not be taking any notice of the level 6 results, one of those reasons amongst many, being what you've mentioned, not all schools took them. Your DS therefore will be in the top group if he got all 5's. How motivated my own ds is, is totally dependent on his environment. He's happy to coast as well as being quite competitive. So if everyone around him is going for it hammer and tongs, he will too because he just loves winning. Likewise, if no one gives a damn, I can't see him saying, I still give a damn miss, so please give me more work.

Must admit, hope you don't mind me saying that it does sound a like a write off. I believe we create our own reality. Even if I thought it I wouldn't allow my brain to travel down that road. At the risk of sounding airy fairy, I aim for A's and A* or the top, with the view of putting into place additional help if need be, to achieve that goal. That way we've always tried out best and then what is actually achieved was meant to be:)

Thanks Couthy Oh dear. < Wince > D is what my friend was told and she was not impressed by even that.

I am not sure what grade will result, hopefully my friend's DS will pull it out of the bag - he's certainly capable.

Those are DD's levels, and at the end of Y6, end of KS2, she was still working towards level 1. I would be very surprised to see an 'average' Y9 getting level 4's, unless they have SN's like my DD does. Everyone in her set is round about level 3/4, though she is at the top end of level 4 and is being moved up from bottom set in September.

Surely with level 4's in English and Maths at least, there must be some indications of problems long before the end of Y9?

In DD's school at least, bottom set is round about level 3/4 at the end of Y9. The top set is getting levels around 7/8.

And DD has had to work her blooming socks off to pull her grades up to level 4's from below level 1 in just 3 years.

Tbh, the change to linear for this year group is going to hit them fairly hard if they aren't in top set or thereabouts. My DD's Secondary think that top 2 sets will drop 1 grade, middle sets 1/2, and bottom 2 sets at least 2 grades from what they were predicted for modular exams.

It's shit to be on this year group!

tiggy -I guess some would find it odd that you find it odd to hope/aim for a decent uni from whatever age really. Imo, you have to aim for something or you're just going along willy nilly hoping for the best. Of course, one of the beautiful things about life is that it's not a noun, like some of us treat it, it's forever evolving and so too, goals and aims can change. I'm not sure either how knowledge could ever be deemed as invaluable or a waste of time, but then that's just my view.

My ds is also sporty as I mentioned earlier. Ultimately, I'd rather my ds be in a work environment that he loves as opposed to being there just for the money or that being all he was qualified to do. I want him to have as many choices as possible and so imo, the more he can achieve academically and or in sport, the more options career wise he'll have.

Indeed for some children, being in a lower group would motivate them. Like I said for my ds, who is incredibly competitive, he'd hate it and would fight like hell to be moved up. For others too however, it sets up a form of heirchary that crushes the confidence of some of those in the lower groups which they struggle to recover from; the very reason why many people are against them. But you know your ds best, so know which way it would impact him.

You know if we were all the same, it would make for a boring world, so I appreciate too that we all have our own ways of raising our dc and value systems based on our own life experiences.