Phonics help sought: is there a rule for words beginning WA...

[Greythorne]

Looking for some help please!

Some words beginning with 'wa' '[was', 'walk', 'water' etc.] are pronounced with an /or/ sound.
But wafer, wag, wage, wager, have an /ai/ sound.

Is there a rule to explain this, please?

Oh dear, just re-read my post and realize I am in a muddle.

Was, want, wad, wan - all have the same sound

But water, walk, wall have another!

I need some serious help here to explain this to DD!

Much of the time the letter 'a' after a 'w' ends up having the short-o sound, and 'ar' after 'w' says 'or'. It doesn't apply every time though, but it's good to try that sound first, and then if it doesn't work, to try the normal short-a sound in many words. (There are also other reasons that make the 'a' long in words like 'wage' and 'wafer').

Other examples to try are: wash, wand, want, wander, wasp,

ward, warm, warden, etc etc

There's one more rule, when 'w' is followed by 'or', which often says 'er', as it worm, word, world, worth

If & followed by c/ck/k/g try the "a" sound

To simplify

W or Qu turn:
'a' to 'o' - as is was, wasp, want, squash, squat etc.
'ar' to 'or' as in war, warden, quarter etc
'or' to 'er' - as in word, world

Though, as there are exceptions, it is more a likelihood than a rule.

With a-e as in wage, wade, wane etc 'w' doesn't seem to make any difference. Water just seems to be an oddity.

Words like wall and walk are pretty consistent with other words that end in all and alk, eg ball, call, fall, hall - the list goes on, and balk, chalk, talk.

Words like wall and walk are pretty consistent with other words that end in all and alk, eg ball, call, fall, hall - the list goes on, and balk, chalk, talk.

In all these words the 'al' spells /or/ (give or take the inevitable regional variations in pronunciation) Oh, apart from 'balk' where the 'l' is sounded [groan]

Here are all common words with 'wa' (excluding suffix ward as in homeward):

waddle, wade, waft, wag, wage, wagon, wail, waist, wait, wake, walk, wall, wallaby, wallet, wallop, wallow, walnut, walrus, waltz, wan, wand, wander, wangle, want, wanton, war, warble, ward, wardrobe, wares, warm, warn, warp, warrant, warren, warrior, wart, wary, was, wash, wasp, waste, watch, water, watt, wattle, wave, waver, wax,

swab, swag, swagger, swallow, swam, swamp, swan, swap.

Applies to qua- words too (like squash).

masha's list is confusing me

runawayhome, cecilyP and mrz
Ok, that's super helpful. Thx.

I think I have got it.

masha
what do I need to do with your list?

The fact is with English spellings there aren't "rules" but lots of words follow the same patterns so try the most common way first.

Applies to qua- words too (like squash).
Indeed. Again with a few exceptions:
quack,

quadrangle, quaint, quake, qualify, quantity, quarrel, quarry, quarter, quartz, quay, squabble, squad, squall, squander, square, squash, squat, squawk.

As Mrz said,
The fact is with English spellings there aren't "rules" but lots of words follow the same patterns so try the most common way first.

Greythorne
I pasted in all the common words with wa for u to use any way u like:
spot the main pattern,
see what the exceptions are,
see what children are up against
and that learning to read English involves a bit more than mere sounding out and blending,
take your child through the most common ones and see how s/he copes with them.

Rather than just talking about graphemes like in the abstract, I always think it's better to look at the words with them.

Ok, lovely, I see. Thx.

I'm still confused by masha's lists I'm not sure what they are meant to show

Masha
Pls can you give mea list if words with 'ough' pronounced /oa/ as in though, dough etc.
Thx

Only:
dough, though, (although).

The other words are:
bough, cough, enough, hiccough, plough, rough, slough (with two pronunciations), thorough, through, tough, trough
and
drought,
bought, brought, fought, nought, ought, sought, thought.

For with an /aut/ sound (autumn, astronaut, taut) there is the alternative spelling of :
caught, daugher, haughtly, naughty, slaughter, taught.

For with an /aut/ sound

Er../aut/ is two sounds, /or/ /t/.

I'm sorry greythorne but masha's lists have very little to do with phonics

maizieD
../aut/ is two sounds, /or/ /t/.
I agree. I should have said with the /aut/ blend.

But and don't spell the same sound in all accents, definitely not in the US where the is pronounced.

mrz
masha's lists have very little to do with phonics.

In what way? Because they show that English spelling is often not phonic?

Sorry masha English spelling is phonetic ... Complex but still phonetic!
Your lists are a jumble of words that contain the same letters not organised into wordsthat follow the same sound\spelling pattern so pretty useless

Howw on earth do you pronounce "autumn" if you think 'au' isn't 'or' author - August. -cause?

Mrz
English spelling is phonetic ... Complex but still phonetic!
That's a bit like claiming that green is blue. If u call spellings like (blue shoe flew through to you too) phonetic, then u make such loose use of language that communicating with u becomes impossible.

Strictly speaking, 'phonetic' means one symbol per sound. English spelling is certainly not that.

It is not even phonically regular, because 80 of its 90 main spelling patterns have alternatives:

a: cat ? plait, meringue
a-e: plate ? wait, weight, straight, great, vein, reign, table
dahlia, champagne, fete
-ay: play ? they, weigh, ballet, cafe, matinee
air: air ? care, bear, aerial, their, there, questionnaire
ar: car ? are + (Southern Engl. bath)
au: sauce ? caught, bought, always, tall, crawl
-aw: saw ? (in UK with the same sound in: or, four, more)

ca/o/u: cat, cot, cut ? character, kangaroo, queue
cr/cl: crab/ clot ? chrome, chlorine
-c: lilac ? stomach, anorak
-ck: neck ? cheque, rec

ch: chest ? cello
-tch: clutch ? much

d: dad ? blonde

e: end ? head, any, said, wednesday, friend, leisure,
leopard, bury
er: her ? turn, bird, learn, word, journey
ee: eel ? eat, even, ceiling, field, police, people,
me, key, ski, debris, quay
--y: jolly ? trolley, movie, corgi

f: fish ? photo, stuff, rough
g: garden ? ghastly, guard
h: house ? who

i: ink ? mystery, pretty, sieve, women, busy, build
i-e: bite ? might, style, mild, kind, eider, height, climb
island indict sign
-y: my ? high, pie, rye, buy, i, eye

j: jelly, jig ? gentle, ginger;
-dg: fidget ? digit

k: kite/ kept ? chemistry
-k: seek ? unique,
-sk: risk ? disc, mosque

l: lips ? llama
m: mum ? dumb, autumn
n: nose ? knot, gone, gnome, mnemonic

o: on ? cough, sausage;
want ? wont; quarrel ? quod
o-e: mole ? bowl, roll, soul; old ? mould
boast, most, goes, mauve
-oe: toe ? go, dough, sew, cocoa, pharaoh, oh, depot
oi: oil ? oyster

-oy: toy ? buoy
oo: food ? rude, shrewd, move, group, fruit, truth, tomb,
blue, do, shoe, through, manoeuvre
good ? would, put, woman, courier
or: order ? board, court; wart, quart ? worn, quorn
-ore: more ? soar, door, four, war, swore, abhor
ou: out ? town
-ow: now ? plough

qu: quick ? acquire, choir
r: rug ? rhubarb, write

s: sun ? centre, scene
-ce: face ? case; fancy ? fantasy

sh: shop ? chute, sure, moustache, liquorice
-tion: ignition ? mission, pension, suspicion, fashion
-tious: ambitious ? delicious, luscious;

-cial: facial ? spatial

t: tap, pet ? pterodactyl, two, debt
-te: delicate ? democrat

u: up ? front, some, couple, blood
u-e: cute ? you, newt, neutral, suit, beauty, tuesday, nuclear
-ue: cue ? few, view, menu

-ve: have ? spiv
-v-: river ? chivvy

w: window ? which
x: fix ? accept, except, exhibit
y: yak ? use

z: zip ? xylophone
-se: rose ? froze

-su-: measure ? azure

Endings and prefixes:
-able: loveable ? credible
-al: vertical ? novel, anvil, petrol
-ary: ordinary ? machinery, inventory, century, carpentry
-en: fasten ? abandon, truncheon, orphan, goblin, certain
-ence: absence ? balance; absent ? pleasant
-er: father ? author, armour, nectar, centre, injure, quota
butcher ? picture

de-: decide ? divide
in-: indulge ? endure
Consonant doubling:
merry (regular) ? very(missing) ? serrated(surplus)

The alternative spellings are used not merely in the examples above but in at least 3700 common words. That's why learning to spell English 'correctly' rather than phonically taxes such a long time.

But and don't spell the same sound in all accents, definitely not in the US where the is pronounced.

Firstly, we're not talking about the US, we're talking about the UK where 'au' is generally (though probably not always) pronounced as /or/

Secondly, you have just perfectly illustrated the case against your spelling reform campaign in that throughout the English speaking world graphemes can have accent specific pronunciations but the words containing those graphemes can be easily read, and mutually understood, by everyone whatever their accent.

That's why learning to spell English 'correctly' rather than phonically taxes such a long time.

If only you would learn the difference between 'phonically' and 'phonetically' [sigh]

English spelling is phonetic ... Complex but still phonetic!
That's a bit like claiming that green is blue.

Phonetic = of or pertaining to speech sounds, their production, or their transcription in written symbols.

In English speech sounds are transcribed using written symbols (the alphabet) it isn't difficult masha.
The problem is in English there isn't a direct one sound one symbol correspondence to learn making it more complex than some other languages.

Mrz
The OED also explains that when referring to writing systems,
'phonetic' means 'having a direct correspondence between symbols and sounds.

We agree that
in English there isn't a direct one sound one symbol correspondence
and to most people this means that English spelling is not phonetic.

What is far more important is that because English graphemes can have more than one sound (e.g. in swan - swam) and because identical sounds have more than one spelling (/o/ in soft - sausage), learning to read and write English takes very much longer than in other languages with more regular alphabetic writing systems. It also means that nobody can learn to read and write English entirely just by learning to apply phonic correspondences or rules.

No there is no substitute for practice and in the early days means someone listening to children read and keeping them right. I guess in languages like Italian they can just be given the letter sounds and left to get on with it.