Average ability kids at grammar schools.

[manicstreetpreacher]

Hey all! Please be gentle as this is my first post after many months of lurking.

Just wondered what everyone thinks of this really. I don't wish to sound unkind in any way so please bear with me.

My dd failed her 11 plus by 10 points despite being the cleverest girl in her class (sorry, not crowing - there's nothing worse than mothers who do that on a regular basis). She was at 5a in all her Mock SATs (don't get the true ones back till next week) yet just couldn't get to grips with the 11 plus thing. She did a few practice papers and just couldn't grasp it. A tutor was out of the question as we simply didn't, and still don't, have the money to fund it.

Having looked around the alternative school and being impressed with it she has stated that she was more than happy to go there. So I didn't appeal - to be honest, I don't think I would have stood a chance anyway as she didn't just fail by one or two points!

So I would be interested to see what people think of this as I know for a fact that kids of a lesser ability have gotten places at the grammars. My dd said that there are a couple in her class who really struggle with their maths but are going to the grammars and she said to me 'surely they're not going to be able to cope?' Which got me thinking about the unfairness of the system.

Do the grammars expect you to be at least at a level 5 for stuff? If that's the case then what is the point of the 11 plus?

And no, I'm not bitter and twisted that my dd hasn't made it in. That's life. I wasn't prepared to shove practice papers at her day and night to ensure she got in. The poor things get little enough time to be kids as it is and I'm quite sure she'll do well at the non selective academy she is looking forward to starting in September.

Thoughts please?

Thanks.

I believe it is true that many kids in gs do struggle regardless they did well with their 11+ or just passed or got in via appeal. However for most children eleven is still a very young age to know how their education today will affect them long term. Still children develop at different rate even during secondary school years.

Peaks great tip on word roots btw, i hadn't realised how much they ae used. Thank you, i can add to the 11 plus envelope!

I think most people keep tutoring a secret, the children give them awy ;-) lots of the children here have an activity every night. One mum was telling me how she is concerned her three year old hasn't chosen an instrument to play yet!!!! I kid you not.

It's sad really, not what grammers schools are about, people just see them as selective and equal to private. But MUCH cheaper!

The fact that some average ability children get into grammar schools, is due to a number of facrors:

• The type of grammar schools(not all grammars are equal )

• Paremtal support and input

-Whether or not a child has received tuition(Having a tutor doesn't guarantee that you will get into a grammar school)

• How determined the child is to get into a grammar school

Whether or not the child's primary school covers the 11plus exam

-Whether the child is able to cope with the type of questions in the 11plus paper.

My dd is taking the 11 plus this year and has been coping very well . However, she is in the middle sets in school, so therefore some would believe that she should not take the place of a so called 'cleverer' child. As some have said the 11plus examines inate intelligence not academic ability, therefore despite the fact that some children appear 'average' to some, with some support these children will succeed .

Sorry 'innate'

Rainy, I have bought a set of books called 'word roots' from the book depository. I didn't use them before the eleven plus but think they could be useful at any stage of education. I now have one child in a grammar and one going to a comprehensive in September. The one at the grammar is studying Latin which has made him much better at English. As the one going to the comp is not going to study Latin, we will learn Latin and Greek word roots at home.

You can see sample pages here:

www.criticalthinking.com/getProductDetails.do?id=03701&code=c

And buy in the UK from the book depository website. Sorry that I sound like I work for the company, but I do think they are a good idea.

They are very interesting! i'm just testing myself ( must get a life) on the know your roots webpage. Thank you.

11 plus can start very early i think, though they never need to know that is what your doing things for;-)

Forehead - My dd is in the same position. But her year group children are very able. I decided that my dd will take the 11+ in year 6 regardless which ever group or set she is in in Eng and Maths. The bottom line is the 11+ test is there for everyone so everyone should take it unless they have a very good reason not to. After all dcs may get a place but then we can decide whether to take the place or dcs may not even pass. However I don?t want to regret that she?s never given that chance to take the test.

Peaks - I found your post particularly interesting. My dd informed me that the verbal paper was ok but it was the other one she didn't like too much. This didn't surprise me as she has been on the g and t register for literacy since year 1 and has been given level 6 work to do 'under the table' in class atm. Her everyday maths aren't a problem although she doesn't enjoy them as much as English it has to be said. So there is definitely a glitch with her somewhere in the layout. And perhaps I could have done more, who knows? But I wasn't prepared to shove it down her throat 24/7. I know many that did and several of them passed as a result. Some also failed - one girl in my dd's class was in tears over it. Seems a bit cruel.

Would I have sent a child to grammar school with a level 3 in writing at year 6? No, I wouldn't but, fair play, nobody knows your child like you do and I respect that. I think, to be fair, because my own experience at the grammar was so dire that that is why I have the attitude that I do towards it all today. I was nowhere near as knowledgable as my dd when I was 11. (Hell, I was still into dolls!) Has it changed? I was at mine in the 80s and it was five years of hell. To this day I don't know how much I passed my 11 plus by but I do know that if you didn't get the grasp of lessons straight away then you were left behind and to hell with you. Most of the other girls came from rich families too. I'd like to think it's a lot less hardline now becaue I wouldn't want any kid to feel like I did although it has to be said that most kids seem to be a lot savvier these days than we were!

Another little thing I giggled about tonight - my dd bought home her end of school autograph book that the kids have all been given to sign and she let me read through the messages - one of which was a lovely one from a young lady in her class who is off to the grammar. It was riddled with spelling mistakes! I couldn't help having a little ironic chuckle to myself. Hmm, as long as you can pass this 11 plus then it doesn't matter that you can't spell?

Anyway, nice to see everyone's opinions, thanks again.

Because lol! Bloody typos - and here's me going on about spelling mistakes!

The whole point of selecting by VR and NVR is that thay are looking for kids who posess academic potential rather than current attainment.
The child with the poor spelling and behing your DD at maths may be way more intelligent but not have blossomed yet or simply doesn't try.Children develop at different times and in different ways.
All the reseacrch shows that borderline children do better in grammar schools than non-selectives.

'You have to be shown how to do the verbal and non-verbal reasoning questions'

that is rubbish a reasonably bright child grasps it straightaway.My 3 eldest made do with working through 1 pack I bought from WHSmiths and 'got' it straightaway and passed easily without tutoring.In fact I found my 7 yo doing a NVR paper she'd come across in her sisters room and got them nearly all correct never having seen anything like it before.OPs DD might be the type that needs spoon feeding.Sausage machines are not what GSs are looking for.

MSP, I should probably add that I do sympathise with what you're going through at the moment. Although my older child is in the grammar school, my younger one is going to the comp in September. In many ways, the younger one is more capable than the older one.

I taught at a grammar school pre children. I think that although the tutored children may gain a couple of grades overall they are usually the ones that feel swamped with the volume of work or the time it takes to get through it all. I'd also be interested to see any research on links between self esteem and those who wouldn't have made it without tutoring.

It would be impossible to know how many made it without tutoring as, has been said upthread, different people have different definitions of tutoring, and some don't even admit to it.

The problem with selecting by VR and NVR to look for kids who posess academic potential, rather than by their current attainment is that when the children reach grammar school they will surely be expected to already be able to do all the things that children who have excelled at primary can do. BTW, can anyone explain the relevance of NVR to the grammar school curriculum?

i have no recent experience of the grammar school system. i can tell you that when i was at grammar school, the bottom sets were predominantly filled with DC from the independent primary school whose raison d'être was to push average kids to pass the 11+. Many of them were also being tutored throughout the grammar school, and just seemed a bit deflated by the whole experience.

Spoon feeding? Sausage machines? Hmm, think someone needs to pull their head out of their backside to be honest.

As I said in my earlier post, my experience at GS was if you didn't get something first time then to hell with you. It's obviously changed.

I still find it hard to swallow that someone who, at 11, cannot spell quite basic words is deemed to have greater potential and be worthy of a selective place. But that's just my opinion. A lot won't agree with me and a lot will. That's life.

Do you think then spelling is a sign of intelligence? More so than reasoning tests? Do you think dyslexics are all thick?

Would agree - spelling is important but some quite brilliant people can't spell!

No. I don't think dyslexics are 'thick'. But I found your post very rude and condescending. I knew when I began this topic that I would get opinions that differed from mine. I respect that. What I don't respect, or appreciate are veiled insults towards a very clever little girl. What gives you the right to assume she's a sausage machine? Just because you have a brood of mensa geniuses you have the right to make that assumption?

Anyway, fill your boots with the last word if you want to. I have nothing more to say in reply to your ramblings.

Hi Manic
there is a girl at our school who was considered the 'cleverest' ,very confident (ie not one to be phased by exams) and a dead cert to pass but failed spectacularly.We are in teh catchment of a 'normal' grammar school so 28% pass.Even when you allow for the fact that VR and NVR are different to maths and English, just seems totally inexplicable and unfair.

No, I'm with you manic. My grammar school experience was similar to yours, though much earlier. I think I got in because I was good at maths while my writing ability was much more average, and I was often made to feel not good enough. I realise now that I could write pretty well for an 11-year-old, but I am sure there were girls in my class who could write well by adult standards. So, unless grammar schools have changed significantly since I went, I don't think VR and NVR are particularly good measures of suitability.

FWIW, my adult son had to do VR and NVR tests for aptitude tests and did spectacularly badly at NVR. I am not sure what would tell anyone in relation of academic education.

NVR tests logic- deductive reasoning I suppose. It is very important to a lot of subjects taught in secondary schools. Lots of employers use it as a test in recruitment and promotion as well.

It is also useful because it tests logic in an unfamiliar context, although presumably some people tutor and some children do activities (lego, puzzle books, art, computer games) that will involve skills that are more directly related to NVR.

It is very important to a lot of subjects taught in secondary schools.

I would be interested to know which subjects. I have deliberately not given too much away but, yes, DS did in a recruitment situation.

Most subjects involve deductive reasoning! Analogical reasoning is also part of NVR and is important in most subjects.

My kids have never done an NVR test, but we are going to some NVR over the holidays as part of developing thinking skills, because I believe it will help them to use reasoning in novel situations, rather than rely on what they already know.