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Is phonics the best way to teach kids to read? Nick Gibb and Michael Rosen debate

999 replies

ElenMumsnetBloggers · 10/07/2012 12:38

Last month all year one children in England had to take a phonics screening check, and phonics is being rolled out across the country as the way to teach children to read. But is this too prescriptive? We asked children's author Michael Rosen and Education Minister Nick Gibb to debate phonics. Read their debate about phonics as a tool for children to learn to read here and have your say. Do you agree with Nick Gibb or Michael Rosen? Is phonics the most effective way to teach children to read? Should we use several ways of teaching reading, or concentrate on phonics? Join the debate.

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mrz · 14/07/2012 18:20

I did what maizie's poor readers do ... went off to check my text messages Hmm

exoticfruits · 14/07/2012 18:25

We all read in different ways really. I have no difficulty with this:

Arocdnicg to rsceearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn?t mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer are in the rghit pcale. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit pobelrm. Tihs is buseace the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

exoticfruits · 14/07/2012 18:27

Obviously you need the building blocks to be a fluent reader first!

JugglingWithTangentialOranges · 14/07/2012 18:30

Ooh, I was trying to remember the opening lines of some Austen novels ...

... I was trying out the one about all happy families being the same, but every unhappy family being unhappy in it's own way.

Is that by Jane Austen ?

Need a better grasp of my English Lit for these games Smile

mrz · 14/07/2012 18:34

No I need the alphabetic code to read words and fewer distractions from children and OH Grin

maizieD · 14/07/2012 18:35

I did toy with the idea of leaving out the commas but decided that was cheating. Grin

Then I thought all the little two & three letter words woujld help...

You can have a complete set of ORT Read at Home Wink

maizieD · 14/07/2012 18:39

We all read in different ways really. I have no difficulty with this: (cambridge meme)

Oh, for heaven's sake. NOBODY has any trouble with that. It just doesn't have anything to do with whole word reading..

mrz - our poor readers don't have that escape route. Mobiles aren't allowed in lessons. Wink

mrz · 14/07/2012 18:39

* * , * * : * * * * * * *.

maizieD · 14/07/2012 18:42

Aw, c'mon mrz. I did give a little clue... Adult or children's?

mrz · 14/07/2012 18:42

both Wink

mathanxiety · 14/07/2012 18:50

'Using context to determine the pronunciation or meaning of an ambiguous word is a completely different thing from using context to work out what an unknown word 'says'. Of course you have to use context in determining whether 'present' is intended to mean 'I am here', 'a gift', or, 'giving', but when SPers say "Do not use context for word identification" they are not referrring to identifying meaning. They are referring to the initial identification of an unknown letter string.'

The 'meaning of an ambiguous word' is the same thing as what the word 'says' surely? Or are you referring to the 'inner voice' used in silent reading when you use the term 'says'?

Letter strings can be pronounced differently depending on meaning. 'Present' is one example where the emphasis tells you whether you are dealing with a noun or a verb, and the meaning of the word is vastly different depending on whether it is a noun or a verb. The role of prosody and context is more important than any initial identification process. In order to decide whether the word 'present' is a noun or a verb, context is used by fluent readers to speed up the process; there is no need to go through an initial identification of the word.

'If guessing and context has been taught you'll get a reader who guesses and depends on context. Which is not how skilled readers read.'

I disagree. Skilled readers, no matter how they have been taught, use a variety of methods to decode a text, including guessing and depending on context. Your assertion that phonics skills are the only way to read even for skilled readers, is contradicted by the recent strides in eye movement research and also by research into working memory.

'Perhaps if she'd put up
'xx xxx xxx xxxx xx xxxxx, xx xxx xxx xxxxx xx xxxxx'
Or
'xx xx x xxxxx xxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxx, xxxx x xxxxxx xxx xx xxxxxxxxx xx x xxxx xxxxxxx, xxxx xx xx xxxx xx x xxxx'
You might have found it a bit more difficult. Two very well known opening sentences. Adult literature.'
-- Again, MaizieD, what does this suggest to you about the role of context? Working memory? Guessing?

You seem to contradict your assertions about context, etc.

'The 'once upon a time' bit was easy but I gave up on the rest because it was too much bother to work it out. Just as my 'struggling readers' have done for 6 years at primary school. That 20% that few people in the debate are really concerned about.'

And as for that scathing judgement on people who think SP is a case of the Emperor's New Clothes -- not so.
It's just that a few people here don't see SP as the panacea for the societal and domestic ills and maybe even the neurobiological problems those 20% of children may have on their plates when they enter a school system that operates as a giant shape sorter turning out, year after year, a product that is the result more of a self fulfilling prophecy than of a system whose aim is to coax out the best from everyone. Those who are successful emerge with their belief in their own superiority unshaken and those who are not have their own negative view of themselves reinforced. It's no coincidence that those who fail in school come overwhelmingly from the bottom rung of the socio economic ladder and no coincidence that among this group it is boys who fail most dismally.

How do you account for the disproportionate failure rate of boys?

mrz · 14/07/2012 18:55

Do you pronounce nouns and verbs differently?

mathanxiety · 14/07/2012 18:58

One of the main arguments I read in favour of phonics and against encouraging the use of context is that the context strategy lets students down when they hit secondary school. They can decode but I get the impression they have to do it 'in manual' it's not automatic.

I do know what you mean, beezbum, but the fact that they are still overtly decoding, suggests that they are still encountering many new words for the first time - words that you would, perhaps, expect A level students to have read before. I don't know if an SP start would have really made a difference, but, in most cases, I suspect not.'

CecilyP and Beezbum, I completely agree with you.
By definition, decoding equals 'not fluent reading'.

An SP start, no matter how thorough, will not make up for an inadequate language bank to which a reader can refer as he or she reads.

mathanxiety · 14/07/2012 18:59

Mrz -- 'Do you pronounce nouns and verbs differently?'

Have you ever heard of heteronyms?

mrz · 14/07/2012 19:01

Yes but I would pronounce present and present the example you gave the same

exoticfruits · 14/07/2012 19:01

'If guessing and context has been taught you'll get a reader who guesses and depends on context. Which is not how skilled readers read.'

Skilled readers use whatever they need -which is how I got the opening lines.My first thought was the 'happy families' one mentioned-I won't bore people with how I got there, but it was other knowledge that I called upon and largely guesses that worked. I put in the Cambridge one for a similar reason.
Children don't learn things in isolation-the phonics is hand in hand with other things. I am all for the phonics method-I should add- but children will bring other things to it which is why some find it easier than others.

mathanxiety · 14/07/2012 19:02

'Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you xxxx'

Seriously?
You would pronounce this the same as

'Have you wrapped the present?'

exoticfruits · 14/07/2012 19:03

I can't do anything with your one mrz because there are no clues as a starting point.

mrz · 14/07/2012 19:04

Yes I would pronounce them the same

exoticfruits · 14/07/2012 19:06

It maybe depends on what part of the country you come from.Smile

mrz · 14/07/2012 19:09

I would hazard a guess math would say controversy very differently to me Wink

mrz · 14/07/2012 19:27

I just asked my son and he said he'd say gift Hmm

MerryMarigold · 14/07/2012 19:37

No way. A gift has the stress on 'Prez' and is pron. PREZuhnt (with shwah) and presenting a show stresses the 'zent' and is pron. priZENT.

MerryMarigold · 14/07/2012 19:38

(Even Americans would say it like that, although they would probably say 'Giyuft' instead of present!

mathanxiety · 14/07/2012 19:52

'CON-troversy', which I think is the majority Irish pronunciation -- but that is not a heteronym.

MerryMarigold, that is how I would pronounce each sense of the word too.
There might also be a long E in 'Ladies and gentlemen, I present...' while the second syllable would still be stressed.