Is phonics the best way to teach kids to read? Nick Gibb and Michael Rosen debate

[ElenMumsnetBloggers]

Last month all year one children in England had to take a phonics screening check, and phonics is being rolled out across the country as the way to teach children to read. But is this too prescriptive? We asked children's author Michael Rosen and Education Minister Nick Gibb to debate phonics. Read their debate about phonics as a tool for children to learn to read here and have your say. Do you agree with Nick Gibb or Michael Rosen? Is phonics the most effective way to teach children to read? Should we use several ways of teaching reading, or concentrate on phonics? Join the debate.

I have a very low opinion of what Michael Gove's brain is capable of at any particular time.

Sorry, not contributing to debate, but the sentiment was dying to get out. The government (whichever one that was) commissioned some report from learned people, the report says don't make children do formal learning too young, the government jumps up and down screaming "but they already don't learn to read in 6 years and we need to make them start earlier so they can learn" . I despair. And disengage.

Well, I agree with that! But that's just my opinion, which doesn't happen to chime with the Lord High Master of Education.

Hopefully the Lord High Master of Education will fuck off not be re-elected and will leave us mere mortal be soon.

Sorry for hijack. Please proceed with debate. Thank you.

rabbitstew, you are comparing a child not being able to take part fully in an optional activity (running in the playground) and having the option to do other activities, to a child being forced to take part in an activity at a level which they are not yet developmentally capable. (Although give them a couple of years and they may be fine).

It's great to be able to take part in activities that boost your self esteem, although I agree, arguably a luxury. However it is a complete waste of time to sit in a classroom being mystified for a couple of years, waiting for somebody to administer a test to show that the education you have received has been inappropriate.

LordCopper he wasn't really properly elected the first time round, which caused him some problems with his O-level proposals.

Interesting debate.

I have two children a dd now in year 3 and a ds in year 1 who has just taken the new phonics check. My dd learnt to read very easily and was free reading by the end of the first term in year 1. She did have daily phonics sessions at school but would then bring home lists of words to learn by sight and the old look and say books (ORT). Mixed method teaching. She is now at end of year 3 levelled at 4c for reading and writing. Seemingly mixed method teaching has done her no harm at all.

My ds on the other hand really struggled with reading when he was in reception. Mixed methods did not work for him at all. He struggled learning the sight word lists and again was bringing home look and say books. He ended reception on ort stage 1 books so way behind. It was only towards the end of reception that I realised how important phonics was and that he was getting mixed messages from school. I bought some phonic decodeble books for the summer holidays and did as much reading up about phonics and how it should be taught. The year 1 teacher seems to be much more on the ball about phonics and from the off we were given reading books that were decodeable. I have done additional 10 minute phonic sessions with him every day and he passed the phonics test with a score of 34/40. He is now reading ORT stage 6 with ease and has been levelled a 1a for reading.

Interestingly, the schools policy on spelling has also changed this year and there are no longer lists of words to learn for spelling tests the following week. Instead, my dd in year 3 has been using phonics for spelling approach. Each week the class are given a set of graphemes eg it may be the I sound so ie, igh, i-e and the children have to come up with their own list of words that fall into each category. There is then a spelling test as the end of the week of words that may or may not appear on the childs list. Her spelling has improved massively as she now thinks about the most appropriate spelling.

merrymouse - using scissors in EYFS and KS1 is not entirely optional. Nor is PE. Frankly, it doesn't appear to be any more optional than sitting on the carpet listening to phonics, or listening to a story that is being read to you. The fact that an awful lot going in in reception washes over a child's head doesn't mean they shouldn't be exposed to it.

In fact, I get rather fed up with people glossing over the things their children can already do, as though other children aren't expected to do them when they aren't ready, but only their child is picked on because they have trouble with phonics...

I've said I think we should learn from other countries, but when you look at the way children learn abroad you see small classes (Finland) and big classes (China). Both systems seem to be more 'successful' than ours according to international benchmarks. So which should we copy?

I'm not in favour of free schools (because imo they take resources away from the mainstream) but if they are good for anything, surely they could be used to test out some of the overseas methods and see how they work for us?

However, I think we would find that we can't simply adopt one system without dealing with what really affects children's learning more than any other single factor and that is their home life/deprivation, etc.

rabbitstew, I think it's highly likely that if you have trouble with phonics you probably have mild developmental delays. In which case, you will be probably 'worse' at scissors and pencil control and PE. Ime, at YR and Y1 the kids tend to be generally not good, generally average across the board or generally quite brilliant.

Sorry, MerryMarigold, but that's a bit of serious stereotyping on your part - my ds1 could read fluently and with expression (and clear understanding) at the age of 3, had no problem with phonics, could write, could do mental arithmetic at a better level than most adults - but had huge difficulty using scissors, colouring in, pulling up his own trousers, flushing toilets, using playdough or sand, putting his own coat on his peg and consequent issues with his self esteem, because he couldn't do what he was supposed to be able to do and could do what everyone else found difficult.

I had to teach my son how to crawl, how to roll over, how to pull to stand, I spent hours in soft play areas pushing his backside up ramps... I didn't have to teach him how to read or how to count up in 2s, 3s, 4s, 5s, 6s, etc, etc. His development to the age of 7 was about as arse about face as it is possible to get.

If your child were standing in a corner unable to participate during PE, or sitting at a table doing nothing while other children were getting on with scissor activities, and the teacher were not providing him with some kind of suitable alternative activity I would equally be saying that your child was being done a disservice and the local authority weren't fulfilling their obligation to provide him with an education suitable to his needs and abilities.

I agree with Merrymarigold that many children have both reading difficulties and difficulty with fine and gross motor skills. Poor tracking skills, poor auditory skills and lack of co-ordination often make reading and writing very difficult. It is great that your son's reading skills are so strong, but for many children it isn't either/or. Merrymarigold is not stereotyping.

Whilst other parents were doing Kumon and reading practice, I was trying to teach my ds1 how to wipe his bottom, brush his teeth and wash his hair...

Making an assumption that a child behind in one thing is behind in everything is a stereotype in my view. Plenty of children are behind in phonics but not behind in anything else.
And is it so unsuitable to be doing the sounds of the letters of the alphabet with some children and more complicated phonics with others? Should four year olds be sheltered from looking at letters and numbers?
And what about the children who aren't ready to sit and listen to a story? I think you'll find that other activities are done with them, even if only to stop them disrupting the children who are sitting on the carpet and listening.

I don't get where some people are getting the idea from that a child must be able to read by the end of reception or year 1 - that's the parents comparing their child to the average child in their class, not letting their child develop at their own rate, but then complaining that the fact that their child hasn't kept up with the average is because they are not being allowed to develop at their own rate.

Or should the response to a child not getting 32/40 in a phonics test be that they are kept down a year rather than having too much phonic pressure put on them, or that the teacher stops teaching them phonics or giving them books to have a go at reading? Or should it be that the teacher realises they shouldn't keep pressing on with that child at the speed at which they were going??????

So, we're now having some pretty major testing at 6 (End of Year 1) - I thought testing at 7 was bad enough - and had been recently scraped ?

Whether there should be a national phonics test is an entirely different question from whether phonics should be taught to young children.

No, not scrapped, just downgraded in favour of teacher assessment drawn from lots of evidence, not just the tests.

It's a check - a very necessary check to make sure all schools are picking up children who need extra help. One glance at the TES boards shows that not all teachers even believe that these children need extra help

Hmm...I wouldn't call spending 15 minutes reading some words to the teacher (which apparently quite a few children really enjoyed) "pretty major testing." Just wait till they hit GCSEs!

That will make for some really interesting test results

Well I hope it doesn't feel like major testing to the children - it depends partly on the pressure everyone is put under about them, and not just how long they are. Also what the consequences of the results are, and how they are interpreted by everyone.

What will, math?

Juggling, our children enjoyed it. It was 5 minutes of one to one special attention, just like one to one with a reading book is.