Calling all teachers: so my son's screwed, then?

[Hooplaq]

Hello! I'm new to this board and was very interested to read the comments from mums who are unclear about what the levels mentioned on their kids' reports mean. Just got my son's report and it's very clear that, at the end of year 2, he's about two sublevels behind in maths and writing (1A). Doing well in reading, though.

He's made only one sublevel's progress in a year in maths and writing - we are helping him at home which is just as well, otherwise his teacher would probably assume he can't write! He lacks confidence more than anything in maths (think that's a family trait :-) )

Reading an earlier post from a teacher on this board, assuming he makes two sublevels progress a year from now on he still won't make a level 4 in his Y6 SATS (that's if they're still around then).

We'll be working with the school to do all we can for him. Of course, children are more than data, shouldn't be pigeonholed, develop at different rates, etc. Yet ... despite these reassurances I can't help but wonder: is my son screwed? Isn't it basically the case that he'll remain 'at the bottom' until he leaves primary school, no matter how hard he works? (Sound negative don't I? It's just that I'm aware of what the school system's like).

I've just been looking at my year 6 cohort's progress since year 2. I didn't have any 1a's but 2c's have achieved level 4c/4b, ( one achieved a level 5 !) and I had a child working on P scales who is now level 4. A number have made 18 points progress, one has made 21 points over the 4 years( each sublevel is 2 points, so 18 points progress is 3 whole levels). So it is perfectly possible for a child working at below average levels in KS1 to go on to achieve average and even above average levels at KS2. What matters is the interveening years, what support he receives, what interventions are put into place and what the reasons are for his underperformance now.

Definitely no need to 'worry' as such that he'll be 'at the bottom' although there is loads you can do with him too (but I'll let others tell you about that). My ds was a very average level 2 in yr 2 and is now about to finish yr 6 with all levels 5b or 5a:-)
But, much more impressively, 2 of his friends were working in maths at level 1 at end of year 2 and are both now level 5 - one of whom is a 5a/6c!!

Would agree with the others- and just made this comment on another thread- they're children not robots, and progress at different rates. There is every chance that at some point in key stage two he'll really start to take off and do well. A good school will be looking at how they can help and support him to make accelerated progress next year. It's lovely to read that parents are so interested and care so much about levels, but it makes me worry that us teachers pass on too much of the pressure that we're under. These kids are only babies!!! :)

Would agree with the others- and just made this comment on another thread- they're children not robots, and progress at different rates. There is every chance that at some point in key stage two he'll really start to take off and do well. A good school will be looking at how they can help and support him to make accelerated progress next year. It's lovely to read that parents are so interested and care so much about levels, but it makes me worry that us teachers pass on too much of the pressure that we're under. These kids are only babies!!! :)

Sorry!!

Thanks very much for the replies - they're very reassuring. His teachers know he's a bright kid and often comment on his love for learning, good manners and knowledge. At this stage, it's about developing the confidence to get his thoughts down on paper.

I honestly don't remember my parents experiencing the stress about my education that I see parents experiencing today. Oh well, onwards to year 3...

Hooplaq- if you're over 30 there wasn't a national curriculum or levels at primary school when you were there, so all teachers worried about were whether we said please and thank you!

I've found with DD that it's taken until Year 8 and KS3 for her to progress in Maths. She got 3a in Year 6 Sats but has got a 5a at the end of year 8. She's a long way off some of the grades her year are getting but less of a gap than there used to be.

Well - my DD was a level 1 in Y2. And in Y4 she's still very behind.

Your child isn't necessarily screwed - but he may or may not catch up.

Just because some kids do doesn't mean your DS or my DD will.

Thanks IndigoBell, I'm aware that he may not 'catch up' and I know that, statistically, it's unlikely - in primary school anyway. We'll just have to wait and see.

LondonMidlandScotland - I am (way) over 30! Teachers seemed to be under less pressure then, but most of us kids still managed to master the basics and beyond at primary school. It's hard not to absorb some of the pressure that teachers are under today when levels are included in school reports along with where they stand in relation to national expectations.

Seems parents today fall into two camps: disinterested or neurotic? (My Charlie is in Reception and is a level 6. Is he OK? ;-)

My point is, don't just 'wait and see'.

Do everything you can and then more to close the gap.

You probably can close the gap - but are less likely to if you 'wait and see'.

Sorry to be negative - but it's very easy for strangers to reassure you how they know someone who turned out fine.

It's not their child who's in trouble.

IndigoBell, I know you're not being negative. We are doing everything we can to close the gap. However, sometimes you can do a lot and the child won't progress until they're ready or if there's an underlying issue. This doesn't mean you leave them to chance. I see it more as accepting there won't be instant 'results' - it's a long haul. Hence my comment: 'wait and see'.

Schools can only do so much with a class of 30 and it really is up to parents to ensure their kids fulfil their potential. So I think we're on the same page. :-)

Hooplaq- you're right about the two camps that parents fall into, and indigobell that's true what you say, some children never do catch up, but will do well in other areas. If they're happy to have extra tuition and do extra homework then good, but if not, and I say this as a human as well as a teacher, then I see no point in pressuring them or forcing them. Maybe there will come a point in their life when they WANT to do more. It's a tough line- we have some parents at our school of children who we know could do really well, and they say 'well he'll never go to uni as none of our family have' and then we also have the 'what can we do to make sure she's a level six?'. Combination of too much pressure from all angles- and I know that at the root of it teachers and parents only want the best for children. Gove, on the other hand......

I'd try not to stress him about about Maths. Not saying you are but...

This is where I am going wrong with my Y1 son.
Sometimes, I am exasperated that something I covered with him 2 days ago - all Y1 stuff - has just flown away to that special 'oh my lordy Maths is a weird thing' place in his brain.

I am going to keep at it though, but try to do shorter bursts and make it as fun as poss. Getting him to explain stuff to his little brother is great. As ds2 is only 3 we are playing very, very, very easy games.

Children can catch up. My daughter has special needs and is in year 4 but has just gone up to a 4c in reading having been a 2b last year.She is also set to catch up in writing and maths even though she was only on p level or 1's in her year two SATS. She has had some one to one help from a TA - so this shows how much this has helped.

I would never have thought this possible in year two.
I think that children can mature academically later than others - I know I did.

At the beginning of yr4 my DS scored a 2c for reading and his ability was judged at 6yrs, he was reading usborne phonics books with 6 words per page and i was quite concerned about him. Now at the end of the year he is 3c and reading diary of the wimpy kid books!
Fair enough it isn't Level 100 or whatever but i couldn't be prouder of him :)
With encouragement they can and do start to catch up.

This comment I think from Teacher with 2 kids on another thread (similar theme) jumped out at me:

Or for example a child who finishes year 2 on a 1B - Even if they exceed expectations for PROGRESS up to Year 4 and up to Year 6, and make 2 sublevels of progress every single year, they would still end up below national expectations at the end.

Is this incorrect? My knowledge is out of date.

You might want to see whether there are any courses nearby for you in maths. From your OP it sounds as if you aren't too confident and so it will be harder to help him. I have a fairly mathematical background and when I sat down every night with dd1 and did 10 mins she made loads of progress. I think with her it was a matter of confidence and that 1 on 1 support. This summer I am considering getting a month on line tuition (if only mathswhizz didn't keep spamming mums net, might choose something different on principle!); for her as she likes going on the computer.

I do think that if you give him the impression (and I'm not saying you necessaarily do) that maths is tricky, it can be hard to help him which is why a course would be useful (our sure start centre runs them). Also the methods they have used have changed. It is also worth talking to his teacher and asking for specific areas to work on, for example one report said dd1 had little understanding of time or money, principally probably because we controlled her time and her money. Bought her a watch and gave her a little more control over paying for things, getting her to work out if she could afford something, how much change to expect etc. It is not something I expected to teach them at that age (she was still only in yr1), and she hadn't asked for pocket money etc, I just paid for anything. Now ds (nearly 3) is already learning about coins and how to pay in a shop.

My dd1 also struggled with writing, although improving now, again it is worth finding out what aspects he finds difficult - for dd it was (and is) largely letter formation, and that holds her back as she found it hard to even read her own writing. Now that is improving we are working on other things like making her work more interesting. She kept a journal when she was camping which got her enthusiatic about it. She has also been working through the dance mat program on bbc website so she can touch type, which means she can type faster and get her ideas down in a legible way.

I know you are already doing work with him, so feel free to ignore my ramblings, and also I think in your position I may well be starting to push the school / pay for some initial assessments, it is hard when the child seems generally clever but it doesn't translate. My dd is same year group, she has made lots of progress over past two terms, otherwise I would have been looking for help now too. I would firstly though be asking for an appointment next week to talk to the teacher, and before hand warn them that you would like a list of specific areas in maths and writing which he finds hardest, and see whether you can focus on one or two of these over the summer.

It is in the school's interst too to advise you, as if he can make significant progress between now and yr6 their value added will be better, and it will mean that he is less behind so easier to teach with his peers.

Hamishbear, if a child finishes year 2 on 1b and makes two sublevels progress each year then they would finish year 3 on 2c, year 4 on 2a, year 5 on 3b and year 6 on 4c, which is the "magic" level 4 but not the "average" 4b! 2 sublevels per year is now becoming the expectation in many authorities, which means the "average " child at the end of year 2 on a 2b would be a 5c at the end of year 6 so then above average!

Now if someone could just tell the Government that children are not just statistics, I would be very grateful!

I have just spent the last hour typing up the progress of my Year 6 class for my performance management meeting on Monday, so it's all very fresh in my mind.

I have 3 children who scored 1B in Maths Year 2 and have just got 4A in their Year 6 SATs - that's 10 sublevels of progress instead of the 6 'expected' sublevels.

Writing is very similar - ALL the children who were level 1 at the end of Year 2 have ended up with level 4 - one has gone from 1C to 4A!

Your post made me look back at their progress over the 4 years of KS2 and there is NO pattern of progress. Some have just sped up - making 2 or 3 sublevels each year. Others have just made massive progress in Year 6 (clearly due to my brilliant teaching!). One had just hated the KS1 type of learning and really responded to the more independent learning that our school expects from Yr 3 upwards. Oh, and one lost her dad to cancer in Year 1, made NO progress at all for 2 years (in fact I think she might have gone down) and then made massive progress from Year 3 upwards.

As IndigoBell says, this doesn't mean for sure that your child will reach the 'average' of 4B in Year 6. Input from you and the school is vital. But one very encouraging sign is that his reading level is good - this will pull up his writing vocabulary and sentence construction and will help him understand the maths worded problems in Year 3.

Final top tip - don't let Maths and Writing go completely over the 6 week break - make a holiday diary, send letters to relatives (twist arms to make sure he gets a letter back!) and find some Maths websites that you can let him play on for 10-15 mins a day. Make sure you stop before he's bored though!

Thanks 3duracellbunnies. I've been giving DS lots of help with maths at home and, according to his teacher, he's shown a lot of improvement, especially in the last few months. Confidence is the biggest issue - it's a case of him not asking for help in class when he doesn't understand what to do. He is, however, much more willing to 'have a go'.

I'm also aware of the areas of writing that he has difficulties with (getting ideas down, lack of interest in creative writing) and have had specific responses about what to help develop during the last parents evening. His teacher has commented on his excellent homework; legible handwriting and good ideas (all his own).

His teacher also, accurately, stated that he's a non-fiction boy so there's a large element of demotivation. Some kids just aren't interested in writing stories. He writes quickly when he gets started and is capable of writing stories - he recently wrote the smashing beginning of a tale in about 15 minutes at home, descriptive language, dialogue, connectives. Won't do it at school, though, so it doesn't 'count' does it? He wanted to take it into school so we made a special book of it and the teacher read it to the class. Got a big round of applause.

I've already also asked his school what support he can expect in Y3 and will be following this up very closely. However, I certainly won't be relying solely on the school to help him. Hope my initial post didn't give the impression that I've given up on him or that he gets little or no support at home. Not so.

Despite all the concern about levels, I am aware that there is still such a thing as 'lifelong learning'. I know from personal experience that the acquisition of skills and knowledge does not begin - or end - at school. It's just that when you're 'in the thick' of anxiety it's easy to forget this.

KingscoteStaff, yes his reading is very good. Excellent comprehension, strong inference-making and, most important of all, a great love of reading. House full of books and all that. Funnily enough, he seems to be quite good at maths word problems - at home anyway!

I might see if he liked mathletics or some similar cheap online programme. I would get a little desk for your main room at home, if you haven't already, and get him producing letters, menus, anything!

I would want to know how his progress compares with the class, has he just had a poor teacher and been in a class who have all made less than aVerage progress.

I would want to know what intervention strategies the school plan, how frequently they will assess his attainment and how they plan to involve you. I would want to know why you didn't know how behind he was earlier, if you didn't and what interventions have been used so far. If non why?

Absolutely school and attainment isn't that important necessarily, I think most people who go on to do well academically later were let down at school though. You are just making sure this doesn't happen to your boy.

You all know me well enought to know I'm goint to say try Mathsfactor (www.themathsfactor.com/) - either the arithmatic school (first month free trial) or try the 3 month summer camp (on-off fee £19.99).

Explanation is visual with a lot of repetition and skills are only gradual, incremental add ons - so that there's lots of practice of initial concept before moving on to next concept.

We've had great success and I'm a huge fan of this slow but steady and practical approach to maths tuition.

DD1 finsihed Y2 as 1a and is now working to 4a at end Y4. All we do is 10 - 20 minutes of homeworks 5 days a week and we've completely turned things around for DD1.

I had no doubt that DD1 was perfectly normal but that however they were explaining maths at the school simply wasn't working and how they were moving through maths units was so disjointed that DD1 was left completely muddled. The end result was DD1 was confused and convinced she was 'no good at maths'.

Give it a try - it really can't hurt.