What should I look for when choosing a school?

[Letie]

I am looking at primary schools for my daughter and am going to be going to some open days. Has anyone got any tips on what I should be looking for or good questions to ask which will give me a realistic insight into what the schools are really like?

These may sound awful but, as a teacher, here are a few things I would do:

-Ignore any OFSTED stuff that goes on about excelling in 'fostering community relations' or 'promoting healthy eating' - it's because they don't have anything else to brag about!

-Sit outside the school gate and watch the kids (and parents) come out.

On your advice Aquilla I probably would not have chosen ds school. However glad I did as it is a kind school. It caters well for children of all abilities yet its bottom line SATs results are not great. However, if you read behind the bottom line it is a great school - less able and more able can and do do well.
[Don't always go on the go ahead of the worried/ scared middle classes who don't even entertain a school. At this school those that have dared have tended to change their minds!]

Aquilla - What on earth would anyone gather from watching the children/parents leave the school? (Genuine question - you appear to be implying something but I am not quite sure what?)

Some great advice here.

I was advised by a teacher friend to take a lot of notice of how you find the head teacher. I have found this to be good advice, they have a lot of influnence over the school.

My observations on the 2 heads I know well enough to comment:

Wishy washy head - crap at sorting out problems, forever blame shifting onto parents. Only wants to surround herself with arse lickers (yup - I don't like her much). disorganised school, staff not supported so demoralised, lots of problems.

Upstanding head, takes discipline seriously, bit "old school" iyswim, open door policy, fab school, high parent satisfaction.

Consider though the head teachers age! The school we chose had a very 'marmite' head who a lot of parents decided not to send their children there because of her but then she retired!

How I decided on which school to put as my first preference..

How easy it was to walk to
How likely we were to get in
How happy, settled, focused the reception children were
How calm, friendly, welcoming the school was on the whole
How I thought DS1 would fit in (he needed a calm school with understanding attitude to SEN (he has a speech disorder))
How much I liked the foundation stage teacher

These were MY preferences though I know other parents who felt the children were subdued and not calm and other parents who wanted a more target driven approach.

Gut instinct is the best though

On the question about how children / parents leave I noticed when DS1 had first started that lots of older children said 'Hi XXX' and when he fell over a small group helped him up and looked after him. This spok volumes about the schools 'family values' and the polite and caring nature of the children.

Do the children look happy? And do the children look happy?

See the children in lessons. How do they interact with the teacher and each other? How do they interact with you and whomever is showing you around?

My favourite on paper school revealed a very different side when I visited - very subdued pupils and an odd atmosphere. The school we chose had pupils who were sparky, very polite and a little bit cheeky.

I went with gut instinct, which was correct but then the head retired a couple of years after we started and the character of the school changed completely.

Look at where they are going after. Many private preps are useless and some are great. We particularly wanted the chidlren assesed by IQ etc at primary level and educated amongst others of the same sex with the same IQ level working at a high standard.

Look at the work on the walls.
Look into the faces of the children. Do they look back at you? Do their faces look happy? Or are you invisible?
Communication with parents.

Hack says it best though. Nurturing is the most important IMO. The reception teacher has 3 children hanging on to her at any given time. The 'no touching' nonsense is completely ignored. She sadly is childless and pours ALL her love into 'her' babies. She is an excellent teacher and they miss her when they go up.

Whilst I would advise reading the OFSTED report, I would also say that it is only a tiny snapshot into the school and that, all too often, an outstanding OFSTED report does not translate into an outstanding school.

Redskyatnight, noramum and SinkingFeeling have covered pretty much all of it and many of your requirements will be specific to your family. My DD is in a wonderful village school, but there is no breakfast club and after school provision is basically sports/enrichment activities, not every day and not for the whole of term (usually ran on a 10wk basis - things like football, rounders, golf, dancing, cooking and sewing clubs, but they are free).

Only other thing I would add is, although school open days can be helpful, I find that the school is on 'display' and much of what you see is what the school and head want you to see. If possible, I would arrange appointments to see the school at other times. The head should be amenable to this and I think you get a better overall picture of how the school operates, as well as having quality 1:1 time with the head to ask any questions you may have.

I think that a few PP's have also mentioned about how nurturing a school is - I would say this was one of the most important factors for me. DD's school is very nurturing and inclusive and all the children are happy and thriving. The school cook, who started in September, has actually enrolled his own children there (YrR and Yr2 child, so not new admissions) and the admin officer had her child attend the school. To me, that speaks volumes - if the staff are happy to educate their children there, then I am too.

The question is not "is this a good school?" but "is this a good school for my child?"

I moved DD from an outstanding Ofsted school to a satisfactory one.
We did it mid year as well and I know the head of her old school was a bit cheesed off. However DD is thriving at her new school. She is a bit of an oddball, doesn't like lots of noise, very bright so at her previous school she was correcting the teachers, likes to be alone a lot, hates group work...so although her old school was ok at dealing with her, as it got towards SATs she sort of got left out as they concentrated on the tests, which was fine for most of the kids but not for DD. So now she is in a school which allows her more freedom to work on her own, or do different things or delve deeper into her pet subjects.

We looked for: attitude of the head, children's playing at lunchtime, interaction with the older children, were the toilets clean? Did people greet you and the head as you went through the school? If you spoke to a child how enthusiastic were they (very enthusiastic in this case) - ask the children the best and worse things about the school, that's always an eye opener. Is there an emphasis on sports? Pastoral care? Children's emotional development? Academic? Results driven?
If you ask the head about bullying policies, do you get fobbed off? One head said "we don't have that kind of thing here" which instantly got the school crossed off my list - unless he's rewritten the human genome, some form of bullying exists in all levels of society, what he meant was, he wouldn't address the issue, a complete no go for me.

How close is the school? We really liked one school but 2 hours a day in a school bus made me reject it.

Do packed lunch children and school meals children eat together? We didn't want DD separated form her friends for silly logistics issues.
What kind of after school activities are there?

How do they deal with those who are a bit behind?
How do they deal with those who are more ahead
Many schools do one or the other but rarely serve both of these groups well. If you have a child in either group, it can become a big issue.

Social and emotional skills - how are these taught/modelled in the school.

Attitudes of other parents as well- if you get to see any (like lurking at the school gate) - I walk with a stick and was openly sneered at by a group of mums when I got out of my car to look round the school. That school got crossed off my list as well.

You don't really get a choice. It all depends where you live. The choice is made for you.

how do you mean chose a school
are you in two catchment area
or faith vs non faith

i thought local authority place you in closest school

For those who mention toilets -- have you really seen horrendous toilets at schools? Aren't they all cleaned everyday.

Scottishmummy it is very different in England, you fill in a form with your 3 or 6 choices. Then if you qualify you get your first choice, and so on down the list. If you are unlucky you don't get any on your list even if you put your closest. In London and unlucky you might get no school to start with.
If lucky you get your first choice.

In our area we have four 'preferences'. We are lucky to have four decent schools nearby but unfortunately there are more children than places so most years they end up making one school a three form entry. We then list our four schools in preference but at the end of the day which school you get into has more to do with the number of siblings in that year group and how far away you live from the school. We were lucky and in the year we applied there was not many siblings, the old head was not particularly popular so we got in. The following year there was loads of siblings there was a new head and people who lived literally on the same road as the school did not get in. I think the illusion of choice causes such problems.

Reading through this lots of comments about nurturing. I agree that's important, especially in foundation.

Looking back on choosing a school I wish I had paid a bit more attention to the level of discipline in the school. It seems to affect so much. A calm learning environment in the classroom, a safe playground, well supported happy staff.

DD is now year 2 and we are just finishing a year with a very kind nurturing teacher who the children adore, but who can't control the class. Children regularly run out of the class room, one started to scale a 10 ft fence onto the main road, many children are rude and uncontrollable, the quieter one who want to learn get very little attention.

The older they get the more important it is.

What's important going into foundation is not the same as now DD is going to KS2.

Pop in and just speak to the office staff....I think you can tell a LOT from how friendly/approachable they are!

Teaching staff turnover last year and staff turnover over 3 years.

For us it was really the only option for us to get into. We don't live near enough to other schools to get into them.

After several visits where we were shown around by SLT or by dull but reliable Yr 6's "trusties", we went to one where we shown around by two very naughty Yr 6's - one boy, one girl. They were clearly best of friends, clever, charming and very happy to give the school's bad points as well as its good. We have sent our DCs to that school because:

  The Head knew exactly that these two would be completely candid, and was happy to let them be so.  (I am a teacher, and have always warmed to schools that give children a real, not token, role in recruiting staff; so why niit in recruiting parents?).

 They were lovely children - sharp, sassy, a great double act (& both v good looking).  Just what I would want my DC to be in Yr 6, not the plain, earnest types most schools lumbered us with. (Except for the one who had no tolerable child guides, so did the job themselves).

 The easy-going friendship between a boy and a girl of that age is unusual, and made us think that the school must have a very special social dynamic.

So far, we have not been disappoinnted in our choice...

notheroldie

Sorry, blooming computer went all weird!
notheroldie 5th Avenue is on Fragrance Direct, in various incarnations including 'night' and '5pm' for around £16. Just thought I'd mention.

For me don't fancy wearing only one fragrance forever, but quite like Dusk by Arrogant Cat.

Oh no I've posted on the wrong thread, my computer is going crazy. Sorry everyone!! How embarrassing. If you find a school where I teach, just keep driving! Sorry (ducks off)