School Report - 'as expected' - good enough?

[EmilyBingo]

My son has come home with a school report. Yr 4. Lots of subject areas and most areas are 'as expected'. Am I being demanding by wanting to know more? 'As expected' in the state system to me sounds a bit like he is not doing well.

It depends what the expectations are. Were you given any expected/target levels?

I once overheard a parent arguing with their child's teacher about whether or not said child was 'average'. Parent strongly felt that their child was 'above average' whilst the teacher was trying to explain that being average is good thing and that making progress as expected was something to be pleased about, not disappointed.

I suppose every parent thinks their child is exceptional, but as long as they're meeting their potential then really there is nothing to be sad or worried about. If you don't feel your child is meeting his potential then you should of course do something about it.

Is it not possible a child might be average one year and above average the next? I am not sure it's healthy or helpful to think of these things to be permanently fixed? For example 'He'll always be a child that meets the expectations but he's reached his limit' about a Y1 or Y2? Surely average one year, below the next and way above the next are all very possible?

Hamish,

Yes, certainly in terms of progress, it is very possible that a child may make different amounts of progress in successive years.

Whether that, arithmetically, will translate into final levels that are above / below / in line with national expectations at the will depend.

For example, a child who finishes Year 2 on a 2B is reaching national expectations.

In the two years to Year 4 (I'll do this in 2 year steps as otherwise we encounter the '3 sublevels in 2 years' problem) they might make less than expected progress and perhaps make only 2 sublevels rather than the expected 3 and thus end on a 3C.

In the two years to Year 6, the child may make 4 sublevels of progress (ie make above expected progress) but end up on a 4B which is reaching (not exceeding) national expectations.

Or for example a child who finishes year 2 on a 1B - Even if they exceed expectations for PROGRESS up to Year 4 and up to Year 6, and make 2 sublevels of progress every single year, they would still end up below national expectations at the end.

Or a child who finishes Year 2 on 3B (which they should to get a Level 3 in that year) - even if they make only a single sublebel of progress over the next 2 years, they will still be above national expectations at the end of Year 4!

Which is why I say it is important to look at progress, not absolute numbers. Not to expect the same progress every year, no, but to check that all children are making the maximum progress they are capable of e.g. a high ability child not being left to 'drift' or a lower ability one to flounder.

Have read thread, but am not going to get into the whole area of whether the state sector's expectations are "good enough".

OP, the basic point is that you haven't been given enough information to understand your son's report. The reports my children get come with an explanation sheet, so I know exactly what "below/above/at expectations means against National Curriculum levels. And I get a handy chart of expectations for each year. We also get separate gradings for attainment and progress. So I could see whether my children had made reasonable progress, regardless of what they have actually achieved.

If your school is not giving you that sort of information, you are perfectly reasonable to ask someone to explain it to you.

But you are not reasonable to assume that "as expected" means "not very good". Not unless/until you have educated yourself with sufficient knowledge of what your son has been learning to judge whether it is what you would regard as a good level of education or not. And that information is all readily available on the web, if you google for national curriculum requirements.

Hi Teacher, thanks.

It's this part that just jumps out at me:

Or for example a child who finishes year 2 on a 1B - Even if they exceed expectations for PROGRESS up to Year 4 and up to Year 6, and make 2 sublevels of progress every single year, they would still end up below national expectations at the end.

What about, for example, a child that's young in year 2. A child that turns 7 at Y2 end that's potentially 'level 6' material at 11? The odds are seemingly stacked against them are they not? I asked a teacher about this sort of scenario recently and they said this would 'never happen'....

Hamish,

I'm not sure that I understand your point?

Are you saying that you think that a child who reaches 1B at the end of Year 2 is likely to be one of the younger ones, despite receiving exactly the same teaching as every other child in that class for at least the previous 2 years even if they had a staggered start in reception?

I would say that age and ability are not correlated as strongly and in such a '1 to 1' manner as that. A young for year child who has received Year 1 teaching in Year 1 and Year 2 teaching in Year 2 would be unlikely to be a full year behind in terms of attainment for reasons of age alone - in the same way, the Level 3s at the end of Year 2 are not the preserve of the older ones.

That's why expectations are set at the 'Year Group' level - 3B for the end of Year 4 - rather than at the 'month of age' level.

While there is a correlation between age and academic level - which is why grammar school tests often give an extra point or two between the youngest and the oldest - there is definitely not a 'year's worth' of difference, especially bearing in mind that all will have been taught at the same level.

Thinking of my current Year 3 class, btw, I have an 'oldest in the year' and 'youngest in the year' both in my middle ability group, and both the 'high' and 'low' ability groups are a true cross-section by age.

Hi again teacher. Was really trying to give an example/make a wider point about a child who might be penalised by the system if they made an unexpected & huge cognitive leap forward as they matured (for whatever reason).

Personally I am not a fan of measuring progress by levels but know many see things differently. Don't mean to detract from OP.

I don't think there are many teachers who can't deal with huge cognitive leaps - I've certainly not seen that from the teachers in my DDs' schools. Both of them have had years where they have had huge leaps - DD1 between Yr 1 and Yr2, and DD2 this year in Yr4. Their teachers just coped.

I also don't recognise the stories of cut-and-paste reports in the State sector - my DDs have always had detailed, personalised reports commenting on academic achievement, effort and social/personal skills as well as detailed information on strengths and weaknesses.

They also both do mental maths and are assessed against heir potential, not against NC averages - this is not just something done in the Independent sector.

Hamish, expectations must of course be high ... but achievable, if with effort and support. Otherwise some children are just set up for constant failure.

And of course "[schools] try to hide top/middle/bottom table groups behind names ie shark/octopus/puffer-fish." Would you really like the teacher to call your child's group 'the low ability children'? Would that help them make progress or feel good about themselves?

This government (and the last) really have a problem with the concept of 'average'; they actually stipulate that all children must make 'above average' progress. They were obviously all puffer fish when it came to numeracy.

Obviously, not all children will be above average; some of the below average children might even belong to MNers.

And it is not set in stone and every year their progress may be different. Teachers expect this and, from my experience in the staff room, rejoice when a child exedes expectations and blame themselves when they fail to meet them. Lots of agonising after SATs tests, about each child.

Hi all interesting discussions going on.

To get back to Indigo: Y2 SATs DD1 were 1a Maths, 1a Science and 2c Reading/Writing (not broken down) (we were told eventually the 2c was by teacher observation, and not by test where the performance was 1b - this because she was rated 1c at start Y3 which was a bit confusing).

Please believe me those who are teachers - I have enormous respect and understanding for the effort involved as my aunt, my brother & sister-in-law are all teachers. My husband's grandfather was a Head Teacher. We both teach in HE and completely understand the effort, energy and dedication required to teach day after day. But we also should be credited with the intelligence to comprehend what the benchmark for attainment should be at the end of a given school year and should be assisted when asking for help.

We went into our school quite willing to follow the school's advice and asked for help with DD1 in maths and were completely left to it and in the process were quite insultingly put down: "We often find with highly educated parents their expectations are unreasilistic." "What you need to understand Mrs X is that your DD1 just isn't that bright."

I have spent the last two years doing nothing but support DD1 with remedial maths and literacy work to make up the huge gap in achievement between herself and where the notional average child should be performing - NC Levels by year. We have had a great deal of success but there is still a lot to do and many gaps in knowledge to fill. I remain totally unsupported with this, although teacher friends at other schools in this LEA have generously provided resources and ideas.

In recent months it has become clear there's a whole army of us parents doing the same at home. We all work and yet were coming home and trying to move learning forwards and reinforce learning - something all of us know our parents never had to do. I remain deeply perplexed why it's like this but determined to help my DDs rather than relegate them to the educational scrap heep. I personally see no benefit (either to society or to themselves) in sending them to secondary school as shaky readers and unable to securely add, subtract, multiply or divide.

PastSellByDate, I just do not recognise your experience of trying to support your child. In our school she would be in various different support groups in school, for anything from fine motor control to aid her handwriting ('Busy Bodies') to spelling support ('Word Shark') to basic number work ('Clever Counters'). These groups take part in assembly time, before school etc, and are run by trained TA's and parent helpers. You would get lots of support to help her.

PSBD I'm sorry to say that it sounds as if you are stuck with a really crap school. I hope you find a better secondary for your DCs so that all your hard work pays off.

@ Hamish I hear from so many that's meaningless to be compared against others in the year group etc. I think many think this encourages unhealthy competition (?) Certainly this approach seems to be wildly unpopular. To be honest I am not sure I understand why. Would you agree and what's your view? Thanks.

No I don't agree, there is nothing wrong with a bit of competition DD was demotivated and totally switched off at school, so much so we were beginning to think there may be some learning difficulties. We moved schools to one with an element of competitiveness (boys v girls in spellings, rewards for achievement and positive thinking) and our DD is now fired up, motivated, works hard to do her best. She is a very average child and I find it helpful to know that she is average in her year group - If she was below, I would know we need to do something to help her.

Yes, all children are different, but I don't see comparing children and their position with their peers, is any different from the 'expected' levels they should be achieving.

OP it is obivous that everyone on here has a different opinion of what expected levels are, you are quite right to ask the question and get some guidelines to help you understand it without being embarassed.

Oh and I am thrilled for all of you out there who have great state schools and get all the information and support your child needs, but please understand that not all schools are like that - count yourselves lucky!

'As expected' or 'doing fine' would drive me up the wall!!! I kept hearing that from our infant school but at the end of Y1 I couldn't quite believe that DS (now Y2) was 'fine' in maths as he couldn't add up beyond 10, but that was all I got from the school.

I looked up app grids and 'I can statements' and supported him, he progressed. In Y2 I noticed he was working with Y1s and work didn't seem appropriate. It took me a term to get his maths re-tested! He was moved up 3 sets!

This week we got the report (first ever with levels) and he was 2b for everything! Personally, I think DS's maths is 2a, but it depends what he shows in school.

The main thing for me is that I know what he should be able to do, that I know he can do it, and if he can't we can practice a bit, however, it seems such a nightmare to get anything out of the school.

PastSellbyDate - thanks for the NC links, I have copied them to see whether DS is really OK in English/Science as well, and also to see what lays ahead in Y3, thanks!

My thoughts would be 'as expected' for average attainment or 'as expected' for the individual child.

I would be very miffed if DS1s report said as expected as in average for his year group as he has been working at least a year ahead since YR, if it was as expected for him then that is different. Again, if it was 'as expected' for the year group for DS2 I would think that would be fine. It really is very individual and I would certainly question it.

Daisy That is awful, at the end of the day I agree that as long as your child is reaching their potential then that is the most important thing whether they are below/ave/above is irrelevant really.

I saw a lovely FB status of a friend of mine who had posted a certificate of her son's which was congratulating him on reaching the 1st reading level and was starting to read sentences. Yes that may be below many of the other children at this stage however for him it was a massive achievement and I am sure she couldn't care less whether he was below/ave/above!!!

Hi LaBelle:

I'm afraid those interventions really only exists for those way below 'floor' - those struggling just below average are left to dwell there.

Ofsted have recommended more interventions - sooner and for all abilities - but whether this will feed into practice or not is hard to say.

DD1 has been hugely helped by a very inspriring TA with reading this year - for which we are hugely grateful. Indeed, it is the only reason we happily send her to school each day. The rest is day care.

What I think would help LaBelle is to require all schools to be as excellent as yours very clearly is. But I can assure you the floor show that went on for OFSTED and the 5 teacher training days taken in the run up to it were about impressing them on the day and to a large extent it succeeded.

IndigoBell So if my DS gets level 2's in his SATs next year then he is performing as expected?

I would beg to differ considering he is 2a/3cs at the end of Y1?

I have a lot of respect for teachers as it is a tough job and there are large mixed ability classes - my DS has an amazing teacher at the moment for half his subjects.

It does drive me crazy though to hear 'progressing as expected' or 'yes he's doing fine'. I do not care what level he is at but do care that he is working hard and reaching his potential, I have no interest where he is in comparison to expected or average attainment.

MrsSutherland I would always expect my children to be held to standards relating to their potential, not to what is average for their age. So far that has been my experience with both my DDs' schools - they rate achievement, effort, behaviour, social skills etc. against the age average, rated on a spectrum - i.e. 'at age expected level' can be either dead in the middle of that grade or edging towards 'above age expected level' - it's a graphic representation.

In addition they provide information about where they are on the NC, what their progress has been and what their next targets are (in very concrete terms)

So yes, if DD1 had come home yesterday with a report stating she was 4B in maths I'd have been very annoyed, because her target set at the beginning of the year was 5a. This is what she got, so she has performed 'as expected'. For her.

Absolutely pointythings! I think the OP really needs to clarify the meaning of the report with the school TBH.

I think it is fine to show the comparison to the average for the age but like you say there needs to be more indivudal information to go with it!