Catholic School - Primary

[4goingon14]

My DD has been allocated a Catholic Primary school for reception. We are not Catholic, we are not religious and yet this is the school that has been allocated by the council. We live in a terrible catchment area where schools are highly oversubscribed...our lowest place on a state school waiting list is 59 for a school the same distance to us as the Catholic school.

At first I did not mind too much as I did not think that there would be too much difference and I have heard that usually Catholic schools are very good. Both DH and I are expats and the Catholic schools in our home countries do not have the entry requirements that they do here (baptismal certificate, church going, etc) nor do they teach religion classes. They only major differences are more holidays and the option to attend Mass for things like Easter etc.

However hearing other people speak about the Catholic school system here I am getting increasingly worried. I have heard about children praying each day, preparing for Holy Communion, having to attend church services and taking religion classes. Is this true? How do we handle this as non-religious people?

Do we have no leg to stand on with the council in terms of a our DD not attending a religious school?

If I were in your position I would want some assurances from the council and the school on your questions. Have you spoken to anyone about it?

My daughter goes to a catholic school (my DH is Catholic) and there is A LOT of religious education and praying that happens on a day to day basis.

Agreed. Ds1 attends a very over-subscribed catholic school. Catholics are DESPERATE to get into it. There is ALOT and I mean ALOT of praying and religious aspect to everything they do, which my ds1 loves.

My DCs go to a Catholic primary.

They pray 3 times a day (morning prayer, lunchtime prayer, home time prayer)

They go to mass once a term.

They do not know the Hail Mary (see my other post lamenting this)

Yes, they do all prepare for first communion in Y3, even though only about half of the children actually take first communion, as far as I can tell.

I absolutely rave about my DC's school, and a good friend sent her child their (partly based on my raving). He is about to finish Y1, and recently asked her what a Catholic is.

Non Catholic children are allowed to be taken out of religious lessons, but one acting head teacher told parents in a letter this would make him "sad". (Which made me snigger.) But these would be parents who really wanted their child to attend the school because it was a lovely school, not because it was Catholic, or couldn't get in anywhere else.

*sent her child there

I'm afraid the council is under no obligation to find a non-faith school for you and it is unlikely you will win an appeal on the basis of not wanting a Catholic school I'm afraid.

I suggest you find out what this school is really like. They vary. Some are very religious, others are not.

If you have been allocated this school and you and your dc is not catholic, I would have thought that there would be other dc's in the same position. My dc's do go to a RC school and so did I so I don't know what a 'normal' school would be like. I can't think there would be a lot of difference though.

At the non denomination school my DSs went to they prayed before lunch every day and were taught "God make the snowflakes". They also went to Church once a year.

The praying I was fine with, but DS1 is bright, and at 5yo needed more explanation than "God made it.". Luckily he got much more in depth answers at the Catholic school I later sent him to.

Be worried.

You have a legal right to take your child out of RE - but the school can make life difficult if you do - like ask you to come in when RE is being taught to keep dc occupied.

Expect prayers two or three times a day.

Everything is taught from an RC perspective, so God is a fact, as is Jesus. There will be RC posters on walls, alongside a cross/crucifix and probably a statue or two.

There will be masses dc will have to attend, and probably write bidding prayers for - but not in reception.

RC holy days of obligation may or may not be holidays, they always used to be but there was a move in 70s/80s to say mass in school instead because parents cannot take a day off. This means (if they have the days off) that the half term holidays are often three days rather than a week

Expect dd to come home with ashes on her forehead on Ash Wednesday. She will probably be encuoraged to give up something in Lent.

She might also have to take in flowers for crowning St Mary in May (actually she will start calling St Mary 'Our Lady')

Charity collections are for RC charities, so you might want to check the ethos of the charity before you give.

Given that on other threads people seem to have to prove baptism at 6 weeks, weekly attendance at church and all sorts to get into Catholic schools, I wonder about the quality of this one ... sorry. My DCs started off at a Catholic primary school (DH is Catholic) and they had 3 prayers a day, went to Church reguarly (4-5 times a year I think) where they had to sit through an entire mass in silence from the age of 4. Lots of religious imagery in the school, "prayer areas" in each class. Interestingly it created atheists out of both my children.

Ooh Sashh - I never thought of it like that. With me all that Sashh says is just part of normal life. I tell my dcs that mass is a time for reflection - yes it is in silence but it's a time for thinking over the past week and the next.

As per what Riverside says, don't know if quite the right word - 'quality', but if not oversubscribed with RC's then the emphasis may not be as much as what Sashh is describing.

I am not concerned about the 'quality' of the school. The school does not exist yet. September will be the first year of operation and they will only have 60 reception children. The school is currently being built and the first year the children will be housed in the church hall. The appointed Headteacher came from another school that she built from the ground up and opened and left it as an outstanding school.

So because of this it is not possible for me to check how 'religious' the school is as it is new. All of the other Catholic schools in the borough are terribly difficult to get into.

I believe we have been placed at this school because it is close to our home and we live in a horrible catchment area in one of the most stretched boroughs in London. Many people did not know about the school so it was not applied for. None of the parents that I have spoken to at the school where my DD goes to Nursery had any idea that it was being built. I know several children on my street and none of them go to the same school...of the 8 I know all go to different schools. The DD that lives next door to us who is also going into reception in September has been allocated a different school.

I am getting more and more concerned about the religious aspect.

My son attends a Catholic school and from what I hear they can vary. However, my son does not get loads of religious input. Mass is once a term and there are no Holy Communion classes in school. It's all very opt in and I would estimate 50% of the pupils are non- Catholic.

In your shoes I would send DD in reception and see whether you can live with the ethos. As others have said Catholic schools will vary considerably. Meanwhile keep her name on other local schools' waiting lists. Number 59 may seem low but most people wouldn't move their child once settled into school so your turn may come quickly than you'd expect.

I think you need to visit the school (assume you didn't get the chance to do so beforehand). What does the oftsed report say? Often it will highlight in the introduction what percentage of dc's are not from a catholic background.

My dc's are at a catholic highly sought after school where non catholics attend. Yes they do pray (but very child appropriate) - something along the lines of "help me do my best and to be kind" I think its positive as it helps to create a positive and caring atmosphere in the school. They are taught about Christianity but they do have education on other religions. I have lots of friends who aren't catholic and haven't found the religious aspects oppressive in anyway.

Schools are very inclusive these days and you may find most teachers are not catholic so it's not an rigid approach.

startlife If you see my last post ^^ the school does not yet exist so not possible to visit and no ofsted. It is a school being built now.

I guess it is just a matter of wait and see and hope...

my dd attends a catholic school we are catholic.

my dd attends a very short class mass once a yesr, this year, year R did not have a class mass, I understand because they are quite a lively class would struggle to understand and take part. which i thought was very good.

They have a school assembly one a week, usual type assembly and a eulogy (reading gospel or parable) assembley once a year. the class assembly for parents to attend is not religious and is to show off some art work, PE, dance or literacy.

Each class pray 3 times a day, but as the children are younger, up to y3 it is a thanks given prayer and is quite generic untill they are older with thanks to jesus, our lord, our lady etc.

If im honest my friends child scholl which is not even CofE partcipate far more in religious activity they have a church service one a term and the local vicor makes very regualar visits to the school assemblys etc.

First holly communion is done through the parish and not the school so those who are not involved do not partcipate in any preperation during school times.

I think if you are concerned at all then you should just give your dds some further thoughts and understanding of what you believe and what others may believe.

Although I am a catholic and believe in many aspects there are also many aspects I feel the church need to change etc and I also give my dd honest answers when she talks about how was the world created...I try to explain it from many angles, my dd is 6 and actually says she does not believe in God but enjoys learning about the stories and how to be kind.

Kindness and hard work above all is the message my dds school provide.

thing is, with catholic schools there is a religious thread through EVERYTHING. You cannot escape it by opting out of the formal RE activities as there are religious elements in every part of school life.

I've been to two catholic primarys and a catholic secondary. I hope to send DS to a catholic school for that reason, but IMO if the religious elements bother you, then IMO you'll be wrong to reassure yourself that they can opt out of it. They can opt out of the masses and the communions and even the actual prayers, but you cant opt out of the casual religious references and imigary which run through everything else

Ds went to a Catholic Primary school for years 3-6 as I didnt want him to continue at our local non catholic school. I chose the school as it had excellent results and was well known in the area. It was practical for transport as it was on my way to work. We are NOT Catholic.

As far as I am aware - there was a religious assembly with Mass about twice a week. The children who weren't Catholic and those too young to have recieved their first Communion were blessed rather than taking the 'bread'.

He never 'had' to attend church.

The school was very good for DS. He was/is of above average ability and that school had a good rep for their G&T teaching. He had attended the primary five minutes walk away from our house for 3 years, but after incidents of bullying/over rough play etc I thought he deserved better.

There were no such incidents at the Catholic school.

e.g. the crafts we did were often to do with religious holidays, I made a crucifix out of broken clothes pegs and other religious symbols out of match sticks

The areas of history that were focussed on were more religious ones

it came into everything

i also attended a catholic school Cheriefroufrou and like you every thing was religious focused. however that was about 20 years ago, not sure how recently your school days where. But I can honestly say my dds school is nothing like what you describe or what I experienced from school.

all curiculum subjects are followed through the NC and so must cover certain aspects, a catholic school cant just make any sunbject flow for their own curiculum.

My kids are at Catholic school, by choice as we are vaguely practising Catholics. I suppose I can't give a balanced view because I'm used to all the hocus pocus, but it doesn't seem particularly heavy to me. I myself when to a non-denominational secondary school though, and didn't really notice the difference - they still made you pray in assemblies etc

There are three prayers a day, but only short standard ones, and a child can always bow their head and not say the words. Mass at school happens at most once a term and the general pushing of God stuff is not that obvious - the slant the school seems to take is more about treating people properly, fundraising for charity, fair trade etc There's no prep for first communion in school. This is fairly standard practice in catholic schools these days. You might find your children get a bit pious in reception (singing hymns in super market always embarrasing...), but it wears off! DS1 (still at primary) is definitely an atheist!

The only thing I've really noticed is they both have a really good understanding of the Easter and Christmas stories, which doesn't hurt because Christian theology is really prominent in our culture and literature so it helps with understanding that - you don't have to subscribe to it.

I have no problem with learning about treating people fairly, fundraising for charity, fair trade etc. Actually I think these are all really good things.

I also have no issue with learning about the Christmas or Easter story. Even though we are non-religious...I have always taken DD to a church for these times of year. I was brought up with religion in my family (great grandfather was a minister not catholic obv). My grandmother grew up in a Catholic convent school and was regularly beaten by the nuns and she is deaf in one ear because of this. I do not have the best view of Catholic schools because of this.

I know that we are in a different age, however it is when I hear things like the Catholicism permeates every bit of the school and that I start to worry.

I suppose we just have to see how it goes and move house if it really is as bad as I don't want it to be as we will never get into another school where we are at the moment.

I know that we are in a different age, however it is when I hear things like the Catholicism permeates every bit of the school and that I start to worry.

hopefully you can be reassured by those who say this is not the case in their dcs school, it certainly isnt in my dds school, there is a christian thread through out the ethos etc, but catholicism does not dominate all subjects and every thing they do.

however if you feel so strongly can you not appeal on that basis?

From what I have been told Faith is no basis for appeal. I find this so strange when I have seen many a thread about non-religious parents wanting to get their children into a Catholic school and them not getting in because of Faith.

The irony.

Do not give up hope re other schools, not now and probably not in reception, but I know of other people who were in a similar position to you, offered place eventually ?yr1 but turned down as happy. Those 58 will include people who have moved, have decided to go private, are on multiple school lists and will accept another place, and also once term starts are reluctant to move a child as they are generally happy with the school, their child has made friends etc, and whilst they would have jumped at a place before their child started school, the prospect of pulling a child out of a second choice school which they are happy with for a first choice school with marginally better SATs results isn't appealing.

I would start at the school, express your concerns (you may not be the only ones allocated there); and see how it goes, you may soon be raving about it!