What would you like your child to get from primary school music education?

[lingle]

I'm gathering views because I've started working doing music in a primary school and have reasonably free rein......

what would delight you if your child had achieved it at year 6? Being able to read music? Being able to use their instrument or voice to join in with others? Being able to play chords on a ukelele? a recorder? a tune on a violin? a tuba? Passing Grade x on an instrument? Singing or Playing a solo without looking mortified? Being in a rock band? Writing their own songs? Knowing and caring about their favourite musician? Having a positive can-do approach to lots of genres, including classical? Playing a rarer instrument like oboe? Knowing the secrets of rock improvision or blues improvision? Being able to say "I'm on grade 3"? Being able to say "I can play thistune on thatinstrument"?

go on, distract me from my other job (which is rather solitary and analytical) please.......

I shouldn't be difficult really should it?

Actually, I'd be interested to hear from any teachers what the barriers are in primary schools to stop these things happening.

Lovely post Theas18 :)

I guess the main barriers are time (when there is so much else on the curriculum to fulfill) and money. I dare say in some schools there might be a HT who just doesn't rate music as important. I certainly remember how much our junior school changed when we had a new head - suddenly there was an injection of culture into the school, so many opportunities like concerts and sports matches that hadn't been there under the previous head. Good ol' Mr Jones :)

"I think it's hard for people who haven't learned to read music in childhood, as the alien notation is quite a big barrier to learning an instrument or singing in a choir otherwise."

"How can children who will turn into adults access making music with instruments if they can't read music."

"If as an adult you think "well, maybe I'd like a go at piano, or guitar or something" not being able to read music is a huge barrier."

I sing in a choir. Our choirmaster makes MP3 practice files for all voice parts, which can be downloaded from our website to help people practise. Practice CDs can also be bought online for lots of choral works. Not to mention YouTube videos that you can sing along to. Our choirmaster has also written a beginners' guide to musical notation, aimed at adults, for newbies to get started.

There are also now so many different ways into singing, that don't require people to be able to read music. There are two choirs within a mile of me which are designed for complete newcomers and learn music entirely by ear.

Not sure whether the same would apply to learning an instrument, but I guess there are plenty of adults who learn to read music alongside their instrument, just as a child would. I'm still unconvinced that getting all children fluent in reading the stave would be a good use of primary school time.

What do posters mean by "read music"? My impression is that "reading music" means being able to read chords & spotting which arpeggios comes from what chord & seeing what key a piece is in not just from the key sig but from the accidentals, too. It's seeing the whole layout & rhythm without playing or hearing a note. It's studying & then just play it straight away fairly decently stuff.

Everything I've read is that learning to read music properly is hard work, it comes with higher grades. Can't see you doing that with 10 minute group lessons which is as much as most schools can offer.

I thought it was really interesting that both the posters about notation being crucial used the word "barrier". For many parents, it's the experience they had as children of notation as a "barrier to entry" (whether or not they crossed that barrier) that shapes their attitude to music education now.

I suppose you can look at it in two ways. Traditionalists might say "let's help people over the barrier". The alternative way might be to say "well, let's move the barrier aside... oops look, the Internet is kinda doing that for us...."
For myself, I think our children will be the last generation presented with non "smart" notation - it'll be the norm to have it on kindle-type machines that "sound it out" as you touch the note before the decade is out I suspect.

my girls are learning piano - they learn to read the music as they play- as they advance, the notation is more advanced...

I don't see the difference between a teacher shouting play C D F to play green, blue, red or whatever - or have I missed something here? All the books on learning recorder/clarinet/piano start with learning a note eg middle C on the piano and all that I have seen use a stave to show what the note is.... it is easy to see if notes are higher/lower longer/shorter, so why not go that way from the start ???

Being able to play by ear, even better if can spontaneously harmonise.

For all schools equally to show the children every musical instrument there is. Let them play them and offer lessons. Choirs of course.
I would never have lessons in school as imo no school teacher is qualified to teach music past the very basic.

lingle. Stevie Wonder doesn't read music. I am not trying to be flippant, only some great musicians never read a note and it didn't stop them.

I teach music in a primary school one day a week. Over the past two years the children have sung in unison, rounds and simple part songs. These have mostly been from memory. They have listened to music from different countries, from Tudor times and WW2, by classical composers from Haydn to Shostakovich, music from old black and white films and by the Beatles amongst others. They have learnt to read rhythmic notation but not pitch yet (although that is something I will be introducing). They have played music using tuned and untuned instruments. For this they have the sheet music with note names under and some manage to pick it up by ear. They have composed rounds and songs (the older ones) and created music for various purposes including to accompany play scripts and films. They have not had the chance to learn any instrument apart from those who join the recorder club which a TA runs.

The problems I have are:
Time. I have classes for about 40 mins a week. Lessons are often disrupted by church, fund raising, trips etc. LAst summer term I saw the year 6 for just 6 lessons in the whole term. We have a short lunch time so I can not do any music clubs then. After school on the day I am in there are two sports clubs which many children go to and the head will not allow another club that day hence no music clubs. Children are regularly taken out of music lessons for various intervention things....so I don't always have the smae children each week....a total pain if you want to do a longer project over a few weeks.

Class size and resources: There are classes of nearly 30. I have to use the classrooms for music...it is very noisy and hard to have group work going on...I have enough tuned instruments for one between 3 nearly..... This makes learning to play music tricky.........There are also a collection of untuned instruments which are slowly falling to pieces. The only other resources are some ancient song books. All the resources I use from sheet music to song books and CDs have come from my own pocket...something with only working one day i can hardly afford.

I would love to get people in to play for the children....but there is no money for this. PArents compain about being asked for contributions and the school has no spare cash.

hels71 - sounds like you do great work. It also sounds very frustrating that even though the school employs you, they don't seem to value what you do.

Wider opportunities (now called First access) is great, but the time has come to suggest some kind of follow on funds. Pupils have a year on an instrument but many can't afford to continue into normal small group lessons. It's almost better for some of these children never to have tried in the first place. I have met many very upset year 4's when they find they have to pay & so end up giving up!
I also think that whatever instruments are taught in small groups, those pupils should have the opportunity to play in a group ensemble too. Far too many primary schools have no school orchestra.

Hi hels 71, I'm a bit concerned to hear of those working conditions.

Are you a qualified primary teacher? Or a community musician?

Do you have other music teachers to network with or are you somewhat professionally isolated?

Do you have the knowledge to find those free resources that are out there?

Are there perhaps some parents who might come in and demonstrate their instruments?

Unfortunately Hels experiences are all too common. You will struggle to find even professional peripatetic teachers who are given money for books & cd's. In our county, the music service peri's are given instruments for the children to use but nothing else! And then people wonder why they get demoralized when a class teacher moans at them for running late or won't let them use the room with an overhead projector. I know many peri's who buy all their own sheet music, mp3 player & speakers, laptop etc. It costs them an absolute fortune! And all that on top of the cost & upkeep of their own instruments they are expected to have & of course a decent car to get from one school to the next! The profession is getting very demoralised at the moment - especially when lesson time is dwindling to less than 10 minutes per week for most kids.

I am a trained primary school teacher with a degree in music. I don't think it's so much that the school does not value music, as that there is no spare money to buy any resources as all there is is used for literacy stuff.....
I have made some enquiries about parents coming in.....no response. We set up guitar lessons a while ago (But they had to be paid for) and these have stopped as no-one was having them.....
I would love to be able to do all the things people on here have said they want.....but without time, resources and space .........very tricky!!!

I do think learning notation is a fairly fundamental part of a musical education. Certainly there are musicians in some genres who don't read music, but to not give children the opportunity to learn to read music is to limit them enormously in terms of the range of musical activities that they will be able to engage in later on. It's also very good for their mathematical skills. But other than that, things that would really delight me by year 6 are:

• a lot of regular group singing, including harmonies, of music in suitable keys for children's voices (can't tell you how many performances of pop songs with backing tracks I have sat through with gritted teeth at dd's school with children grumbling away at the very bottom of their ranges because their choir leader either hasn't realised that the key is far too low, or didn't manage to find an alternative).

• group playing and as many children as possible to learn an instrument

• regular performance opportunities both group and solo

• children exposed to a wide range of music from the last 500 years, not just the last 50 (although not excluding the last 50 either of course)

• children starting to understand how music can tell stories with melody and texture, eg looking at Peter and the Wolf

• children having the opportunity and guidance to compose their own music

• if children are learning about a particular period in history, it would be great if there could be some coordination with their music classes, eg if they are doing Elizabeth I, get them listening to/singing/playing some Dowland.

• a decent amount of time devoted to music, and recognition that it is a serious subject, not just a frothy extra.

hels71,

Good to hear it isn't the school.

It's coming across to me that you may be professionally isolated. Singing teachers had access to all the "Sing Up" materials for free until this year - so using your own resources and paying for them shouldn't have been necessary (unless you're referring to printing and copying charges).

Have you discovered the www.teachingmusic.org.uk/forum? This is the forum for professional teachers recommended by Ofsted. If you introduce yourself on there and describe your problem, I'm pretty confident that you'll be pointed in the direction of some amazing free resources. I'm on it too, under a different name - we could almost have a little primary subsection as most of the teachers there are secondary.

hels, what's your catchment area like?