please explain to me the pros of mixing years 3 and 4 together cos i seem to be missing the point

[juicychops]

my son starts junior school in september. the school was taken over by an academy in April and after a meeting 2 days ago i have discovered they are putting into practice all these changes starting in september.

there are 3 classes in the infant school, and we were originally told my son's class would move up together and all stay together as a class (as would the other 2 classes in his year). the junior school is a feeder school from the infant school with supposedly close links to eachother.

we were told at the meeting that instead of having 12 classes in the junior school (3 per year) they are now condensing this down to 2 lots of 5 classes - 5 will be years 3 and 4 mixed, and the other 5 will be year 5 and 6 mixed.

the meeting was incredibly rushed as they probably expected parents to object to the new format and ask many questions, so it was completely rushed and was not given a chance to ask any questions before the meeting was wrapped up and we were sent on our way. Because of this it wasn't until i got home that i actually started thinking about this and to be honest i can't think of many positives for the way this new system is being put in place.

as i missing the point?

as far as i can see, the only positive i can see is that the year 3s who are top of the class will benefit from doing harder work with the year 4s.

surely each year will be working on a different lesson plan, year 4 will end up going over stuff they already did in year 3, or year 3 will completely miss out on stuff they should be taught in year 3 so as not to repeat it for the year 4s. the bottom year 4s will be held back with year 3s, more kids per class,

A great teacher will come on here and tell you not to worry, there will be differentiated lessons etc etc, and do not worry, nobody misses out, and yes, that may well be what happens in her school.
Another teacher slightly less great, will tell you the same thing but it won't actually happen.
A parent who has been there (me for example) will most likely tell you that your scenario is closer to the truth.

It really depends on the quality of the planning. Mixed year classes are the norm at my children's primary and has never been a problem for us; however they are very experienced in working this way and plan very well.

Topics are planned in a two year cycle so they don't repeat work from year to year and the actual work they do is differentiated for different abilities/year groups. They are also streamed into different ability groups for things like numeracy and literacy and so go to different classes to work with different teachers as appropriate eg. they will have a numeracy group with just year 3s, one with a mixture of year 3s and 4s of similar ability, and a group of the very able year 4s only.

The main downside has been that each year the classes are re-jigged so that children are moved round to make sure that classes are equally balanced in terms of gender, ability, friendship groups etc. This has the potential for established friendship groups to be split up, but the positives are that unhelpful pairings can be separated and friendship groups get extended.

I think the points you've raised are all valid and worth raising to see how the school would address them. As they have not tried this method before I don't blame you for being a bit wary tbh, but as I've said, it can work well with good planning.

ds1 goes to a montessori school where they deliberately have mixed age range classes. it's part of how they work

the idea is that the older children learn to help the younger ones (if necessary), and the younger ones learn from the older children.
it seems to work pretty well so far! DS1 is in a mixed yr 2/3 class and the level of work etc seems absolutely fine

what should happen is that they'll work on similar subjects but in different ways.

I went to a very small primary school myself where we had mixed years and we all turned out ok (only anecdotal i know!)

it was made clear at the meeting they are doing this purely for financial reasons. i found out today from a parent who works at the school that 2 teachers recently left so i am assuming its so they dont have to replace them. the fact they told us it was for financial reasons is why i have so many issues with this. its like they are making these changes to cut corners rather than because they think its in the children's best interests.

the school and standard of teaching was pretty poor to start with so i can imagine unless ds gets an amazing teacher, this is going to take a good few years work well and how it should be in relation to other schools that currently do this.

I have never taught anything but mixed age classes, but I'm not sure whether this makes me the great, or the slightly less great one that Islavalargeone mentions!

Children in mixed age classes are taught at the level, rather than the year group they are at. So a child coming into year 3 on a, say, 3b will be working with some year 4 children working at the same level. Just as in a single age class, there will be a wide range of ability levels, my class currently ranges from llevel 1 to level 6 for Literacy and level 1 to level 7 for maths! But it would do that whether it was a single or a mixed age class, the work is adjusted to fit the ability of the child. Nor would you repeat things every year, the topics will be different, the books covered in Literacy will change from year to year. Maths, which is taught cyclically anyway, will build on the previous steps at whatever level is required ( so for example, if a child is working on addition they would start with simple addition on number lines through to addition of decimals to 2/3 places but all the children in the class would still be doing addition in that particular level!

My only concern would be that the teachers are not experienced mixed age teachers, but that would only affect the planning needed, not the teaching itself!

I have taught mixed age for years. It really doesn't matter these days because most schools teach skills for their level, not by age group.

And yes, it's probably done for financial reasons. But what can we do? Schools are skint.

My DS2 was in a mixed Year 3/4 class. Year 4 was very samey I have to say in a 'not this again' type way.

I have read many of your posts regarding education snowball and I think I have previously mentioned that I would be more than happy if you were my dc's teacher.
I don't think everybody 'plans' to quite the same level unfortunately.

When I was at primary school (95-02) We had mixed classes. Yr 1 + 2 together, Yr 3+ 4, yr 5+6. It was fine.. everyone learnt the same things.. maths and english were split by ability tables (3 yr 5 tables of 4/6 people,3 yr 6 tables). They rotated what was taught.. so one year they taught xyz (not english/maths.. I mean RE, history topics etc), the next year they taught abc. It meant that if xyz was "yr 6 work", then half the time the pupils were learning it in yr 5, and then doing "yr5 work" in year 6, but really didn't matter.

Sorry not much help.. just that it was great for me.. different people in your class each year.. but still core group of your age to fall back on. Generally across the school people mixed more than they would've done otherwise I think.

I hated this method of teaching whilst I was at school and when I found out the nearest school to us did this, we applied elsewhere

Single-age classes don't mean much in terms of common abilities. This year my Year 6s ranged in level from 1b to 6a. That's a more extreme range tom plan for than in many mixed 3/4 classes.

It's all about teaching at the level of the child, whether mixed-age or not, that's what you want to look for.

i dont really know how it all works other than the secondary school academy that this junior school is now under now controls the school financially, not any local authorities involved

Sounds odd if you don't have to mix because of low numbers. I taught Y3/4 mixed class for a year and the range can be overwhelming, I had literacy levels between W and 4, so essentially the whole primary range of abilities. It was v tough to differentiate to be honest. The lower ability Y3 often struggled to keep up and the Y4 top group got bored sometimes. But that can happen in every class. If there's a good teacher it doesn't matter so much but a mediocre teacher (like me!) could struggle to keep everyone motivated and engaged.

i condider my ds at the moment to be at the top end of year 2, so i think in some ways he will benefit from being able to do some work with year 4s when he gets to year 3 in september. but i dont want him to come to year 4 having been pushed to the best of his capabilities, only to be held back again in year 4 because he will have to spend a whole year settling at whatever ability he is currently at and not being given the opportunity to be pushed any further.

MrsJamin, thats exactly what i mean. I dont want my ds to end up bored

I have read many of your posts regarding education snowball and I think I have previously mentioned that I would be more than happy if you were my dc's teacher.

When it comes to Maths & English especially there's not "year 3 work" and "year 4 work". There are levels and it really doesn't matter when they reach them, there's always something to work towards.
So if his levels are higher he'll keep being pushed no matter what.
If this doesn't happen it wouldn't happen in a single age class either. It's not the mixed age that's the problem, it's the teaching (potentially).

What Panzee said makes perfect sense to me and I hope this will be the case for my DD as she goes into year 4 in a mixed 3/4 class as one of the more able.

Depends on numbers.

If your mixed class has 30 kids or less then it's absolutely fine.

If it has more than 30 kids I would be cross.

The mixed age thing means diddly squat. All classes have ranges of 2 years plus and minus, so a Y3 and 4 class won't necessarily have any bigger spread than just a Y3 class.

There isn't such thing as a topic you study in Y3 and a topic you study in Y4. There is only the KS2 curriculum which schools can teach in any order in any year.

I was in a mixed class, as I was one of the 10 youngest in my year and when re-jigging classes I was put in with those from the year below - though still went to secondary on time (I have never understood how this worked, but I was only about 9 at the time).

I was bored to death for the rest of primary school. The lessons were geared to the younger students and given I was already top of my (previous) class...