Huge fail - Appeal... Please Help!

[Rosett]

Just had my appeal and it was unsuccessful. Don't know what to do next.

Here's the situation. I got my school application pack in a few days late so didn't get my 1st offer, 2nd offer or even 3rd... They went and allocated me a school they chose...

The reason for the appeal was I already have a son in reception at my chosen school so I really needed my daughter to attend the same school. I also have another child that is only 2 and if he gets into the 1st choice school my daughter is going to grow up in another school away from her brothers.

There is no way I can be at 2 different schools at the same time for drop off or pickup... I don't drive and husband works full time so is no help.

I cannot afford to put one of them in after school or breakfast club everyday but again I don't want them all being split up..

My daughter's d/o/b is 24/04/08 - Can she start in reception the September after if I just re-apply.. (I am sure they accept her if I get the application in on time). Will she be too old to go into reception??

Will they allow her to stay on in pre-school nursery on her grant for another year??

She is on the waiting list but the appeal apparently went unsuccessful because there were no spaces available in the school.. I know for a fact some mum's don't want their places at this school and want the school my child has been offered... I was in the Education Services Office and overheard them...

What should I do now... I am in a real pickle and cannot allow my daughter to go to another school.. She needs to be in the one with her brother...

Please help....... I don't know what steps to take next,

Thanks x

First of all, calm down (easier said than done, I know).

Where are you on the waiting list? Presumably, as a sibling, your daughter is somewhere near the top of the list. How big is the intake to the school - do you have a fair chance of getting a place before September as other people turn down their places? Obviously, this is more likely in a school with an intake of 60 or 90 than it is in a single form entry school.

As I understand it (I wait to be corrected), most nurseries will allow a child to stay until the age of 5, but not beyond that. Your daughter can't delay starting Reception for a year - if you defer her entry, she'll go straight into Year 1 - but she doesn't have to start school until she turns 5, so you could hang on in the hope that a place will come up via the waiting list then. Otherwise, your options are

to accept the place you've been offered and (if you can't afford to pay a childminder) find a friend to help you with the school run

find another school that has places for both your children

home educate your daughter until a place becomes available at your preferred school

There are some great people who can advise you on this board, but they probably don't have a 2yr old keeping them up.

You won't be able to delay for another year (if you are in England), but nursery funding does extend to the term after she turns 5, so for your dd that would probably mean that she could have a nursery place for the next year, but she would then have to go into year 1 somewhere, or be home educated until a place comes up.

Your allocated school has to hold a place for her if you intend for her to start by say Easter, but she would have to start there in the next educational year, otherwise you will lose that place too.

How old is your son? Could he be moved if there are spaces? Or if he will be yr 3 or above then an appeal might be more successful as there are not the same restrictions on class sizes.

Check that you are on the waiting list for your preferred school, find out where you are on the list. How large was the intake? This will help give some indication of how likely you are to get a place, e.g. 2nd on a list for a two class entry is good, 15th on a list for one class entry not so likely, but still not impossible in an area of high mobility. Check too that if they give preference to siblings that she is down as a sibling, also that their report of your distance seems accurate. It is vital that you are in the correct place on the list.

What are the published entry criteria? Have you asked them which category your daughter is currently in? (e.g. If they take children in catchment over siblings outside of catchment if there is a set catchment area). Sometimes too you need to reregister interest in September, check whether this is the case for your LEA.

I'm sure an expert will be along in the morning, but if you can add any more details from the stuff I've said above it will help them to advise you.

As frustrating as it is they can't just swop places, if you give up the place at the other school then it might go to someone with a child in a different school, although they may all shuffle round. I guess it depends on how impossible the other school is compared with potentially home educating for a few years. On the other had the person top of the list for the offered school may be about to start at your preferred school, and would move now, but not in a few months once their dc was settled.

Ok, so PanelChair is still up! In someways rather than keep her in nursery you might do better to try home ed, go on the board here for some tips. Keep the place open at the other school but defer entry until jan/apr. If home ed doesn't work for you then you know that you need to take up that school place and somehow work out the logistics. If however you are both happy with it then continue until she gets a place. Her staying in nursery won't help you know if home ed would work in the longer term. My friend did that (for different reasons), she deferred until the jan, tried home ed and two years on her dd still isn't in school.

wow!! Thanks everyone for helping..

Just to add to it... The school we lost the appeal for has 3 receptions and with places of 90 children. My eldest son is already attending this school but is only in reception himself. I know we are on the waiting list and with being in the encatchment area and with a sibling at the school guess I'm high up the list.

I don't know the exact position on the list but I'm going down to the office today to try to speak to someone about it.

It's not really an option to pull my youngest son out of school. He's has built up a strong network of friends and can't have my daughter attending a separate school to him.

One more thing... With my initial application form going in late I hope it doesn't affect my waiting list position. Do you think it does... Suppose I will find out today..

Also should I have received a pack or something to alert me that school applications needed to be in or do you just have to work it out yourself. This is the main reason I got the initial application in late. Didn't have a clue and with the distraction of 3 children I honestly got side tracked from it all!!!!

Anymore information would be great and I'll find out today how high up the list I am.

They are not allowed to put you at the back of the waiting list just because you applied late. If they give priority to siblings you should be at or near the head of the list.

I'm afraid it is up to you to keep an eye open and apply at the right time. LAs do not have any reliable way of identifying all the children who will need primary school places in their area so, even if the LA did send out packs automatically (most don't), you cannot rely on receiving one.

If you are very high up the waiting list then I would wait it out for a place at your chosen school.

Otherwise I think you should seriously consider moving your son. Children do move schools and is not the end of the world for them (although it might seem like it briefly). If you are far down the list I would consider looking for a school that would take both your children together.

You will be high on the list, but there may be other sibling-link children higher than you if they live closer. I think it is very unlikely that a place won't come up before September or shortly after when the school is a three-form entry. I would keep your dd in nursery until a place does come available - that's by far the easiest option, though you won't sleep well until you have it sorted!

I did this with my dd1 and still got the funding, but that was a few years ago - check with your nursery.

I wouldn't spend any more energy trying to fight the system - you should have got your application in on time, and if your ds was in reception, you would have seen posters telling you about the applications for months before the deadline.

The onus is on you to find out when your application should be in, our LA does not send application packs out. According to our LA booklet, by law allowances can only made for extreme circumstances, such as a lone parent being seriously ill, death of an immediate family member (parent or sibling only) or moving to UK from abroad. Sadly, your reasons for applying late are not considered exceptional - many parents are in the same boat as yourself and manage to apply on time. Therefore, rightly so, your preferences were not considered until the first set of allocations had been made and, as your preferences were all over-subscribed/ subscribed to capacity, you were offered the nearest school with unallocated spaces. Sorry, I know that sounds harsh but that is the reality. I do, however, sympathise and really hope things work out.

As prh has said, your position on the waiting list will not be affected by applying late. I would imagine you are pretty high on the waiting list, if the LA gives priority to siblings in catchment. Good luck today, I hope you find out you're at the top of the list and that there is enough movement between now and September so your DD is offered a place. I do urge you to accept your original offer, though and defer until the summer term if needs be. As 3durecellbunnies warned, not accepting your place may mean your DD is left without a school and, once the LA has made an offer, they are not obliged to make another offer to you.

Also, children do leave quite frequently - in my dd's oversubscribed school, at least two children didn't take up their place and three children have left since the start of the year. That's a two-form entry school.

If the school has an admission number of 90, then the appeal would have been an appeal under the infant class size regs. In effect the only way that an appeal can won is for you to prove that a mistake was made in the admission process. As you were a late application and you seem to accept that this was your fault, you therefore would have only been considered for a place at the school after all those who were on-time were allocated places. If it is a popular school I ma not therefore surprised that you were not offered a place at the school and would lose at appeal because in effect no mistakes were made in the admission process.
As PRH and others have said, with a sibling in the school, you should be high up the waiting list for the school and that is what you need to ask the admission office - where are you on the waiting list. If you are not near the top then there is something wrong.
Hopefully if you are top of the waiting list there will be some movement and you will get an offer of a place but you do need to thinking about what you will do if no places do come free.

Just got back from talking to someone about the waiting list... They weren't very helpful at all.. Wouldn't tell me where I was on the list and said the list moves up and down all the time and they will monitor it and call me if a place becomes available...

I asked him if i could keep my child out of school this year and re-apply as normal for reception next year and he said he didn't know...

I asked how I would apply next year for the school if I wanted to keep her off and go straight into year 1.

I asked how easy it would be to pull my other child out of school and put them both into another school. He again didn't know...

I seriously think this guy just started his job today and the person dealing with my case apparently was in appeals all week so he was filling in..

Again really confused what to do now... What would you lot do....

Call the school rather than going in person and if the person isn't there ask to leave a message for them to call back. Make sure you go on that waiting list. If you weren't on the waiting list already don't worry, it isn't a first come first served system. Places are allocated by the admissions criteria.

Although I'm unclear at the moment whether it is the school or the local authority who keeps the waiting lists. I have a feeling that the waiting lists have been moved to LA control, but things chop and change so fast!

I'm sure someone will come along with more up to date knowledge than me.

Pesonally I would wait on the waiting list. I would accept the place at the other school and defer to January if you can especially as she's April born so may even prefer a little longer at nursery (and check with both the other school and your son's school - some will allow children to be left with the breakfast/after school club for up to 15 mins if necessary, or you may be able to make an arrange with your school and the TAs).

But I really don't think you'll have to wait that long with a 90 intake. My next door neighbour did this and had a five month wait - and that was for a single form entry school. For a three form entry school, and with you being high on the waiting list, you'll probably get a place by Christmas at the latest. If not by September.

I think you need to try and talk to someone more helpful tbh. If your preferred school's reception intake is full then that is the same as next years year one intake IYKWIM so there may still be pressure on places in that school.

The LA office staff can be more helpful than they are being - it is there job to help you to find school places for your children.

It is easy to change schools if there are places available in your chosen school. If the LA staff are not helpful try ringing the school itself and ask if they have places.

You can keep your child out of reception if you wish but you cannot defer a year - they will still be placed in the appropriate year group when you do send them to school.

You may find it more helpful to ask to speak to the head at your older child's current school. They will be able to explain the procedures for moving schools and applying for places after term has started.

No, you cannot keep your child out and reapply for reception next year - deferral for a full year only usually happens in very extreme circumstances (very premature late summer born or late summer born with specific SEN that would benefit from deferral and, even then, is almost impossible in England).

If you did defer for the full year, you would be doing an in-year application to Year 1. Problem is Year 1 (and Year 2) are also subject to infant class size regulations, so unless a place becomes available during the course of reception, the school year would still be at capacity of 90.

The LA should be being much more helpful - yes, the waiting lists change all the time, but they can still indicate where you are on the waiting list at that point in time. The LA should also be able to indicate (may take half an hour or so of looking) whether there are any schools local to you with unallocated places in YrR for next year and the current YrR. But, again that could change at a moment's notice as people move in/out of area or, like yourself are trying to find a school which can accept both your DCs.

Hoping you manage to speak to someone more helpful within the LA.

It's crazy not to tell you where you are on the waiting list. Ring back tomorrow, ask them to confirm that you are on the waiting list and where you are on it. If they can't give you an answer, ask to speak to the head of admissions.

Accepting the school place you have been given and deferring to the summer term is a good idea. It gives you some breathing space.

I agree with clinkclink, this is unacceptable, they must tell you where you are on the waiting list. It is definitely the LAs responsibility to keep a waiting list till at least Christmas for the school and you need to know you are on that list and in a position that makes sense, that is very near the top!
Deferring entry does give you time for a place to become available and one would think with 90 pupils that should happen. The problem is that you child might be missing out on not being in school, so it is a difficult decision to make as to which is best for your child.

Changing schools for both children is not going to be easy as you are looking for a local school that has places in two different year groups and given the age of the older sibling both will be infants and therefore subject to the infant class size regs in many instances.

As has been said, the LEA has to keep a waiting list at least for a term and - with the proviso that your place on the waiting list can go up and down - ought to tell you where you are on it.

Since there are 90 places, I would have thought your chances of getting via the waiting list were pretty good, especially if you're willing and able to keep your daughter in nursery or home-educate while you wait. If you're determined for whatever reason to get her into school for September and have both children at the same school, then you may still need to think round the other options. None of them are easy - there will be few if any schools with a spare place on both Reception and Year 1, for example.

I think you need to push them further for your place on the waiting list. You need to check that you have been on the waiting list from the time that you requested to go on it. You could also ask whether any other places have already been offered from the list, and which category those people were in. You need to make sure that no one has leapt aheaad of youu on the list incorrectly. Depending on the order of entrance criteria it would problably be only people with siblings, SEN etc. Also find out whether any appeals were successful and therefore the school is already over PAN.

The LEA should be able to give you more information which should help you to decide what to do. I would say that as long as they give priority to siblings, and you are high up on the list then you stand a good chance of getting a place in the reception year. My DDs's classes have lost one or two children a year, so in a 90 intake there should be some movement. The main thing is to make sure that you are in the right place on the waiting list, both in terms of the sibling link and the distances. Both of which they should be able to confirm. I would try an e-mail too. Then you can get these figures in writing.

Thanks everyone... Going to email the Education worker dealing with my case.. Apparently the guy I spoke to was just filling in whilst she was away on appeals. Going to ask where I am on the waiting list and how long the lists are open. Also whether anyone else has been given places..

I think if I mention how determined I am and I hassle her every week she may be more helpful.

Is there any particular questions or things to say in the email to help... If any of you have experience with dealing with these case worker then please help!!

Thanks again.. You've all been so helpful