Please no more phonics

[morethanpotatoprints]

Ok. I am quite happy to be educated here as I admit knowing little about phonics. However, I can't see as they have helped my dd. I believe she is dyslexic (although school would never look at this). For children who don't get the sounds, or can't spell what are the alternatives. In addition how do they move on from words which are phonetically correct but spelt wrong. For e.g Table- tabul/ chair- cher (Northern dialect there) Practice or Practise/ Praktis. My dd is probably going to be home ed soon and I would really appreciate somebody telling me what I can do to help her improve.

Your post is too general. You haven't given your DD's age or what her specific problem is.

Some words you just have to learn by recognising them. This might be the way forward for your DD. My DD just didn't get phonics like other children (school decided she is dyslexic). I am a big believer in phonics because I've seen it work, and she still does phonics with a TA, but she seems to read "tricky" words more easily because she has learned them by sight, rather than having to work them out as she goes along.

Learn more about phonics then you will be better equipped to help her

I'm sorry communication not one of my strong points. DD is 8 and y3. In KS1 she was a level 2A in literacy and 3 in reading. She has always struggled with speech, not talking till 3 and then full sentences, she had clusters and received speech therapy for aprox 1 year. I am dyslexic and dd seems to be weak in exactly the same areas as I do. She reads well and can work out words by guessing, working some sounds but mostly through reading the sentence around the tricky word. She also struggles with comprehension but I'm not sure if this is the same problem. Because of her levels school refuse to even question if she has a problem despite her not understanding certain sounds such as ai, th, ea. For e.g Ples instead of please. However, words such as love that she has written on cards for many years (practiced a lot) she always knows. There are many reasons for our choice in h.e by the way, but must admit the standard of English is one of them. I don't blame the teachers they are really good, I have a problem with the system.

Sorry for all the questions, but when you say a problem understanding certain sounds, do you mean reading them or spelling them? Can she work out simple unfamiliar words from their letters, or does she forget the sounds that certain letter groups make? Or is just with spelling - does she have a good idea how a word might be spelt, but it just isn't the correct spelling and you want to be able to help her make the correct choice? If so, there are spelling programmes that will focus on this, which other posters will be able to recommend.

Hello Cecily, she seems to forget a lot of what you could term rules of literacy. She forgets what she has read, or it doesn't go in. She reads but can't tell you much of what she has read, sorry to sound vague, but thats a bit like her, vague and in a fog. Her teacher says she is not trying her best at comprehension, but I know she is. Her problems are writing the word and spelling it correctly. Sometimes I read something she has spelt wrongly ask her how it is spelt and she gets it right. She does forget the sounds certain letters make. I have downloaded some from tes resources and gone through them with her. Next day its like I haven't spoken. Some words she seems to spell like her accent if this makes sense, so she is trying to sound. Like the above post I mentioned cher instead of chair, which also makes me think speech problems as she also says f, v anything but th. I know what its like to experience shutting down and being in a fog as I have experienced this all my life. I know what it is like to have to read something several times before I remember or make sense of what I have read. She loves reading and I am so pleased and proud that she tries so hard, but wish there was something to stop her struggling.

It's not that school don't think she's dyslexic - it's that a label of dyslexia does not tell school anything they don't know.

All it says is that she struggles with the stuff she struggles with. They know that.

It does not tell school how to support her better.

If you HE you'll probably come across the same problem school have - that knowing that she's struggling doesn't tell you how to help her better.

However if you want to you can get a private diagnosis of dyslexia. British Dyslexia Association or an Educational Psychologist will sell you one for £300 - £700.

Your best bet is to assume she is dyslexic, and decide what you are going to do about it. ie research it all you can, and decide what you think would help her the best.

If your daughter reads more easily by recognising how words look on the page then encourage her to read by recognising familiar words! It's that simple. Do what's best for the child not what's hardest for her. (If someone had broken ribs you wouldn't advise them to play rugby. Playing rugby is good for you, but not if you've got broken ribs.) Just use common sense with reading in the same way that you would do with anything else.

As a dyslexic myself I recognise a lot of the problems that you are describing. However, I would not dismiss Phonics just yet and I will explain why.
First of all it sounds like you learnt to read by look and say as did I. I had no knowledge of phonics, because of this. Last year when my DD was in year 2 I discovered that there were a whole load of double letter phonics sounds and rules which I did not know about AI being one of them it is said AY. So if you know this rule you say ch-ay-r you know the rule it is spelt chair.
Since learning these phonics rules my spelling as a 39 year old adult has dramatically improved.
When I explained my problem the teacher was fantastic and gave me all the info I needed.
Yes your daughter may still learn to read by look and say, but getting a really good grounding in the rules of phonics could dramatically improve spelling.

Erm please let me know if I'm being ignorant here, but doesn't a 3 in reading in ks1 sats suggest she's not exactly falling behind?

Polly - you can be dyslexic and not be behind.

Yes I'm sure you're right, but to be in the top 20% or whatever would suggest that she's managed to find some effective strategies. Maybe I'm just thinking of a friend whose son was doing very well at school but wasn't the very top and she began to suggest that his 'poor' spelling (ie making spelling mistakes at the age of 7 as they all do) must be due to dyslexia. Which was pretty insulting to the friend we were with whose child had been diagnosed and was struggling.

Because dyslexia is a spectrum condition there will be kids who are very severe and kids who are more mild.

But they both have dyslexia.

Your friends child's poor spelling may or may not have been due to dyslexia. Obviously can't tell from here.

Thank you very much for your replies, I really just want to find ways of helping her as I struggled such a lot at school and don't want her to be the same. I never had any problem reading really except I read very slowly and didn't take it in straight away, like dd. I don't think this would have affected my levels at school either.
Lizcat thank you for your practical advice it makes sense and I will continue with phonics as well as whole word reading.
I'm not sure if I will pay for a diagnosis as it doesn't really make any difference, maybe I'll spend the money on some extra resources/software.

It seems from what you say her actually decoding of the text is fine but she isn't understanding /remembering what she has read?
If so I would look for some short paragraphs and read sentence by sentence with her, looking at the meaning of any unfamiliar words and talking about each sentence in depth (really dissect it) before moving onto the next. Then re read the paragraph asking her to give you a brief summary of what she has read. It's a skill that needs teaching/modelling and some children find it harder than others.

Wanted to also add dyslexics often go on to be high achievers once they get the strategies right. Despite really rubbish spelling I managed to get it to the toughest degree course and graduate. Run my own business now and am a business ambassador helping others get started. Rubbish spelling will not stand in her way.

My DD (she has dyslexia and APD*) NEVER learnt to read using phonics. The only words she could read at age 8, halfway through Y3, were the 'irregular' words that aren't spelt how they sound.

It took me until then to persuade the school that IMO, DD was NEVER going to learn to read if they persisted with phonics. They then very bloody reluctantly taught her to 'sight read' the first 100 CVC words. They then carried on, as she 'got' them like that. Within 3 months she was reading.

I had already previously taught my younger Dbro to read at age 3yo using phonics, so to me beforehand, I thought phonics were the bees knees.

I have since had DS1 and DS2 learn to read using phonics.

But I stand by my as serration that my DD would have been illiterate had she not been taught to sight read, abandoning phonics.

While phonics work, and work well, for the majority of DC's, there will ALWAYS be a minority of DC that just will NOT learn to read with them.

*Those with APD (Auditory Processing Disorder) are at a HUGE disadvantage when it comes to phonics, and studies have proved that DC with APD learn to read much quicker or learn to read at all if they are taught to 'sight read'.

The new phonics test makes me and , because it just discounts the fact that education will not work if you try to make it 'zone size fits all', because one method of learning to read cannot possibly suit EVERY DC.

Phonic's aren't always as perfect as they are made out to be!

Blooming Autocorrect! Assertation, not as serration!!

OP, you say your DD is often 'vague' and 'in a fog'. Does she have trouble remembering two part instructions like "go upstairs and bring down your shoes"? (Does she get upstairs and forget WHY she went up there?)

You say she still has problems with certain bits of her pronunciation, do you still see the SALT / Developmental Paediatrician?

Because the combination of things you are saying smacks of APD to me, but that is usually picked up when the DC is actually still having S&L therapy. It can be missed though.

Could it be that the increase in DC's that have SEN is caused by a refusal in general to see that there are many different learning 'styles', and each learning 'style' will suit some DC, but none will suit ALL DC. If schools were allowed to be more receptive to different methods of teaching DC to read, then maybe the amount of DC's classed as having SEN would drop? And maybe it would be easier to get ALL DC to a reasonable level of literacy at the end of Y6.

Just wanted to put across a more positive experience that we've had with DS2's school. DS2 is 6, bright, and might have mild/moderate dyslexia (too young to say) or maybe is just extreme visual learner. Phonics in Reception resulted in DS2 feeling a complete failure and refusing to even try to read. After the first 2 terms his Reception teacher then switched from phonics to sight reading completely - with dramatic results, the best of which was DS2 realising that he really could do this and seeing his battered confidence return. His Y1 teacher has continue with the sight reading, supported with a little bit of phonics, and he's doing really well now. Bit of a wobble first team in Y1 mind - I do wonder if he just wasn't fully ready until he was nearly 6.

Point I wanted to make was that both teachers wanted to find a method that worked for DS2 and weren't Phonics-zealots. I think it has helped that Y1 teacher is a mature teacher with many years of experience of different methods. So there are some child-centred teachers/schools out there - was hoping this was the norm rather than us getting lucky, but I do wonder. A colleague of mine has DD same age as yours and got dyslexia assessment and then started out of school coaching for her, which seems to be really helping her. Same thing with my nephew (bit older). Neither set of parents were very happy with their school.

morethan - in your situation I'd consider going down the assessment/coaching route, but I'm basing that on second hard experience really. Best of luck.

No CouthyMow it correlates to improved awareness. Phonics was the main method of reading instruction for 400 years or so before whole word/language/look & say was introduced from the USA with disastrous results followed by a few years of mixed methods.
and aren't all words are spelt as they sound

Erm, that really depends on your accent, Mrz. If you speak in RP then maybe. If you have a strong Northern, Midlands, West Country, Estuary or other accent, then not so much!

While I agree that phonics is a GOOD thing in the majority of cases, there will ALWAYS be some DC who are the minority that phonics will not help to learn to read.

Which is why the (IMO) overzealous push to teach DC phonics to the exclusion of all other methods is a BAD thing, because it doesn't allow for differentiation if a DC is not learning to read using phonics.