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Mrz! IndigoBell! Maizie! Was steam coming out of your ears at 7am this morning?

46 replies

Greythorne · 18/06/2012 08:27

Did yiu hear Radio 4 this morning?
Debate about phonics teaching.

I hooe you didn't hear it as it would likely have ruined your day :)

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EverybodysSleepyEyed · 18/06/2012 20:11

I see. Well it's very interesting. DS has no interest in learning 'sight words' so the decoding works well for him.

I am in awe of his teacher having managed to teach him to read in a year when he had zero interest when he started!

Greythorne · 18/06/2012 20:13

Who is Mary Bousted?

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maverick · 18/06/2012 20:14

John Bald on today's media efforts:

''The Left is blazing away at phonics, and especially at the phonics check. They are good at getting on tv and radio, and truth takes a back seat. Michael Rosen on ITV Daybreak, for example, repeatedly said that two thirds of children in the pilot scheme for the check had failed, and that the school by law had to tell parents that their child had failed. The truth is that schools are advised to tell parents that their child needs more help with phonics, and to examine their own work to ensure that phonics are properly taught.

Meantime on Radio 4, Dr Mary Bousted, of the Association of Teachers and Lecturers, protested that "I've got a PhD in this and should not be patronised in this manner" (by Hackney headteacher, Greg Wallace). The title of her PhD is A socio-political analysis of the personal growth ideology of English teaching. What evidence this provides on how children learn to read I'll let you know after I've read it. Her alternative strategies amount to guessing games, and were smashed by research evidence years before she wrote her thesis - eg Schatz and Baldwin, Context Clues are Unreliable Predictors of Word Meanings, 1986. I'll see if this and the work of others, notably Stanovitch, are cited in her work, but am not holding my breath.

John Humphrys told Dr Bousted that having a PhD did not mean that a person could not be wrong, which leads to the broader question of whether this medieval degree actually meets the needs of modern research. It doesn't - or at least not always. Communication and publication, especially in brain research, are moving so fast that it's hard to keep up. At the other end of the time-scale, most educational issues take more than the standard three years to investigate, so that work is often truncated to get it completed. I've recently seen a doctorate that were based on no more than 10 weeks of direct observation of children.

PhDs should be treated on their merits, and not with deference, so well done to Mr Humphrys''.

mrz · 18/06/2012 20:14

Dr Mary Bousted general secretary of the ATL

Greythorne · 18/06/2012 20:17

Have you listened to the programme yet, mrz?

Be interested in your POV.

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EdithWeston · 18/06/2012 20:27

Even Bousted didn't say the word couldn't be decoded (and other posters beat me to a description of how). Her comment was about expectations in the first year, not "so how do you do this one?"

I think her expectations of how much a child would learn in the first year are rather on the low side. And her comment isn't particularly illuminating or helpful in the context of a check taken at the end of year 1 (so after 2 years, for most children). I would usually associate such misleading and diversionary tactics with those whose main argument is weak.

mrz · 18/06/2012 20:33

Mary Bousted demonstrates her poor knowledge of phonics and how phonics is taught. She says when she learnt to read it was phonics alongside high quality literature which is exactly how it is taught now. As I said I doubt she has ever taught a child to read and her PhD in English doesn't mean she is an expert ...far from it.
I think the opposition from the unions is political rather than founded in fact.

Gregg Wallace is also confused because in Y1 children are learning the alternative spellings for sounds so said is taught through phonics. Not the best person to provide an informed view for the debate.

daisymaybe · 18/06/2012 20:33

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singersgirl · 18/06/2012 20:33

Rabbitstew, I think several people have pointed out that 'said' is pretty easy to decode. Of course all words are in fact decodable if you know the code. There are some very rare correspondences, but many of these are quite frequent words, so the chances of a fluent reader coming across words they know but have never seen written which can't be decoded are very small - sorry that I used 'adult', but I was assuming that an adult would be completely fluent.

mrz · 18/06/2012 20:35

daisymaybe some schools haven't done the test so is it a good idea to put words on the internet?

Feenie · 18/06/2012 21:16
Hmm
rabbitstew · 18/06/2012 21:35

I guess my idea of decoding and an expert's idea is different. If the same letter combinations have more than one pronounciation, depending on the word they are in, I would say you have to learn which words go with which sounds, which isn't colossally different from learning through sight recognition, even if it helps you the first time you see the word in that you can test out the different sounds you know until you make a word you have heard before. In other words, I think to say that every word in the English language is decodable when more than one pronounciation of the same letter combinations is possible is stretching a point.

rabbitstew · 18/06/2012 21:39

ps I didn't think Mary Bousted came across as remotely convincing. Both of the supposed experts sounded very petulant.

rabbitstew · 18/06/2012 21:42

And, frankly, when it comes to spelling words yourself, you also need more than phonics. So claiming that everything is possible if you only know phonics just isn't convincing - more is going on in your brain when you are learning to both read and write.

mrz · 18/06/2012 21:45

they came across as very ill informed IMHO

English has a complex spelling system but it is decodable and usually it is easy enough to try the alternatives and yes commonly used words do enter memory.

rabbitstew · 18/06/2012 21:46

(Not that any of this is disagreeing that high quality phonics teaching as the first step in learning to read and spell isn't the way to go).

HumphreyCobbler · 18/06/2012 21:52

The article in the Times incensed me so much that I actually wrote a letter to the paper. I have never done this before.

rabbitstew · 18/06/2012 21:52

By which I mean, I agree that it is important that children be given high quality phonics tuition, for the avoidance of doubt!

rabbitstew · 18/06/2012 21:53

What article?

HumphreyCobbler · 18/06/2012 21:56

Just about the hostility of the unions towards what is, after all, a basic check on phonic understanding.

If the children don't know it, they need to know it, so their teachers need to teach it to them. If a significant proportion of children don't know their phonics when tested then schools need to rethink their teaching.

maizieD · 18/06/2012 22:39

Thanks for thinking of us, Greythorne! (I've been out this evening, so only just caught up with this thread)

I'm not even alive at 7 a.m. so didn't hear the broadcast but did hear some of the listeners emailed responses as I drove into work. Which did upset me!

Though a bit of reflection had me thinking that the opinions of people who have probably never taught a child to read or closely studied the evidence for the various 'methods', really weren't worth getting het up about..

On the other hand, some very positive comments from parents at a recent Parents Evening and and from pupils in a 'pupil voice' exercise tell me that my use of phonics isn't bothering the people who really matter in all this Smile

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