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To Kumon or not to Kumon. That is the question.

999 replies

megabored · 17/06/2012 00:28

DD is starting school in September. Below are the Pros and Cons I have been debating recently.

  1. She is bright, so should be okay without extra help in school
  2. It is too early to put her through this
  3. Kumon is expensive and time consuming.

The Pros

  1. It may give her that bit of extra confidence at school
  2. Earlier is better as then she can grow with that system
  3. Its not so expensive as to be prohibitive.

I really cant decide either way. Please someone help?

OP posts:
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teacherwith2kids · 18/06/2012 14:21

Coming back to this thread after a morning of teaching children to do - among other things - maths.

I find the polarisation of this debate difficult.

1a. Kumon teaches children to know basic number facts fast. This is not a bad thing BUT it is a tiny subset of maths as a subject. Children who have, or develop alongside this recall through other teaching, a good concept of number will find such number facts useful and may be able to apply them in other contexts. This is a good thing but it requires additional teaching to the 'core' Kumon curriculum.

1b. There are other, cheaper and more enjoyable ways of learning basic number facts fast, but there is nothing intrinsically wrong with using Kumon to do it, as long as the child has other opportunities to develop a proper understanding of number, preferably in advance.

2a. Kumon is one example of an out of school activity which parents enter their children for, which has some academic content and thus may improve a child's in school performance in one small area of their academic life.

2b. There are many other examples of out of school activities which have some academic content and which parents organise for or do with their children, and which may improve a child's in-school performance This be something formal like another form of tutoring, or a different type of organised activity such as drama or music. There are also innumerable 'informal' activities - baking together, reading together, playing board games or card games, doing practical maths together, having a kitchen table covered with science experiments - which may equally boost a child's in-school performance.

3a. Kumon, with its very focused and structured approach, may help a child to acquire the ability to concentrate for short periods, and they may gain self-esteem from the measured progress such a system has built in.

3b. There are many other ways in which a child can acquire or practise the ability to concentrate and focus (reading with an adult, attending a dance or drama lesson, storytime at the local library, playing board games with the family, building a Lego model, drwing or painting or jigsaws etc etc). Equally there are many other ways in which a child's self-esteem may be reinforced - my DD's self-confidence, for example, comes primarily through dance.

I know no mathematicians (of whom, as it happens, I know an unusual number) who have ever attended anything like Kumon, and equally the academic and professional scientists and engineers I know spent more of their childhoods taking things apart, growing moulds on the kitchen table and making things go 'bang' than learning number facts by rote... However, as long as a child ALREADY has a strong concept of number through practical activities, receives a rounded maths education elsewhere and understands that arithmetic is not the whole of maths and that not all maths has a single right answer, then Kumon is unlikely to do any harm. Whether the benefit matches the cost - and the 'opportunity cost' of the time which could be spent receiving a more rounded and personalised type of education - and whether the same benefits could be delivered in a different form which might be better for the child, is a balance for each family to make..

PanicMode · 18/06/2012 14:25

Very interesting points teacherwith2kids, especially the bit about children just experimenting, seeing what happens if....and blowing things up. My son spends a lot of time doing that sort of thing....

IndigoBell · 18/06/2012 14:25

But if you do like the Kumon approach you can print off enough worksheets from Minute Tests here to probably last you all of primary school.

IndigoBell · 18/06/2012 14:28

I don't think that chess / computer programming etc makes you good at maths - I think that kids who are good at maths enjoy chess and computer programming.

It really shouldn't take you daily drills from 4 to get good at arithmetic.

You do need to ensure your kids are good at arithmetic - before they leave primary school.

Being good at worksheets won't help a reception child at all, when it's all 'learn through play'. So it won't give them any confidence.

seeker · 18/06/2012 14:32

This reply has been deleted

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Holidaymaker · 18/06/2012 14:41

Kumon is the work of the devil, used by pushy, competitive parents who are frightened of some unseen and unknown threat to their child.

Any child that has even the remotest ability in maths will hate it. Far better to buy toys that enrich maths in a sideways direction and improves problem solving.

teacherwith2kids · 18/06/2012 14:42

I've just remembered a point 4, by the way:

4a Kumon will teach your child a limited number of key arithmetic facts. It will not necessarily show you whether your child could, in fact, perform much more complex maths - rather than stretching your child, it may be putting a ceiling on what they can achieve.

4b. A more mixed and practical Maths diet, including lots of real world exposure to numbers and their uses, may by removing this ceiling allow your child to demonstrate their understanding of a much wider variety of maths facts. A child who 'learns through play' about football league tables can learn to add and subtract numbers with negative answers, and may go on to order, add and subtract said negative numbers. If the same child reads the numbers on EVERYTHING from telephones to telegraph poles to houses they will learn to recognise and read numbers up to 6 or more digits and may go on to investigate and describe relationships between them. A rush to 'formalise' maths as a basic set of arithmetic facts may in fact limit a child's maths development rather than hasten it...

SunflowersSmile · 18/06/2012 14:48

Just noticed a few post deletions...
By the way - still believe at Reception age kumon and worksheets have no place at all. [If ever].

megabored · 18/06/2012 14:48

indigobell I agree, that it's people who are mathematically inclined like logical games such as chess. Not the other way.

The daily drills I suppose help with routine, discipline and concentration. I agree so does story time, lego etc.

The worksheets I hope ( not tried them so no idea) will help with pencil holding, letter and number forming etc.i am not even talking basic arithmetics. Agree these are available everywhere.

What did kind of catch my eye was a comment from a poster that said (not sure who said it) that having that weekly contact with a third party helps motivate.

OP posts:
Caerlaverock · 18/06/2012 14:48

What is wrong with giving your child a good grounding in arithmetic? My child gets all the other stuff at school I don't see why doing 10-15 mins extra work at night is such a big deal.

I think a bigger ceiling is put on a child who cannot perform mental arithmetic

Feenie · 18/06/2012 14:50

It seems it is okay for the kumon haters to judge the parents who make their kids cry to achieve something but not okay the other way around.

All to do with personal attacks, OP and Overstepping The Mark. Hence the deletions.

megabored · 18/06/2012 14:52

Now what I don't understand is why people think that parents whose children go to kumon do nothing else to balance al that arithmetic? Why does it have to be either or?! Again, going around in circles on this thread.
I've gained some very useful ideas and insights so thank you all.

OP posts:
teacherwith2kids · 18/06/2012 14:54

There is nothing wrong with "giving your child a good grounding in arithmetic".

Kumon will, as I have said, teach your child a number of maths facts that can be instantly recalled, and as long as the basic understanding of number is there (likely in a schooled child of say 5 or 6 years of age) then there is no harm in that. The cost / benefit balance will be different for each child in each family - my children's school, for example, doesn't do a huge variety of science experiments, nor do they do a particularly large number of open-ended maths investigations, nor do they allow very extended individual reading, nor do they have an orchestra, so I prioritise all those things instead - but for most children Kumon will do no harm - as my post above says, there just may be alternative - and maybe better - ways of giving the same benefits.

teacherwith2kids · 18/06/2012 14:59

Megabored - I suppose I see that £50 a month or whatever, and the time invested on a weekly and daily basis, as an 'opportunity cost' loss. If that money, and that time, could not be used for any of the other activities, and if you have sufficient time and sufficient money for both KUumon and a full set of other activities, then that is fine.

Hhowever, for most families there is likely to be some kind of trade-off between time in Kumon sessions vs time playing board games or setting up science investigations, and equally between money for Kumon and money for e.g. musical instruments or going to a live science show or whatever. It's whether Kumon is the best use of the scarce resources of money, time and parental attention?

PooshTun · 18/06/2012 15:30

"for most families there is likely to be some kind of trade-off between time in Kumon sessions vs time playing board games or setting up science investigations"

It doesn't have to be that way. Our DCs would do their kumon while breakfast or tea was being prepared. So the trade off was between TV/Xbox and Kumon as opposed to between quality time and Kumon.

As I said above, kumon antis see it as a solution to a problem and not surprisingly it doesn't live up to their expectations. Whereas I see it as an aide, a bit like a teaching assistant who is there to backup the teacher as opposed to replacing her. If you start off with the premise that the TA is solely responsible for educating your DC then off course you are going to be disappointed with her performance.

At the end of the day, kumon is international so it must be doing something right. Surely not all these parents are, as a certain poster puts it, victims of a business that preys on insecure parents.

seeker · 18/06/2012 15:41

Waiting for the apology, PooshTun.

And I am sorry about derailing this thread, but I feel very strongly about this.

teacherwith2kids · 18/06/2012 15:42

As long as Kumon markets itself as what it is - an aid to learning simple mental arithmetic - and is completely honest about that, without raising any other expectations in parents, then there shouldn't be a problem.

It's when parents see it as 'teaching my child maths' or 'stretching my child's ability' or 'the passport to success in maths', or when it is marketed as this, then there is a problem, as it rasies a perception gap.

Aboutlastnight · 18/06/2012 15:53

I think op had already decided anyway..

PooshTun · 18/06/2012 15:54

A certain amount of hype is expected. I mean, are Internet dating sites really full of young and very attractive people? Is losing a bit of weight really going to launch you into a new life, a new job and a better social life?

megabored · 18/06/2012 15:59

about gosh, how do you know?

OP posts:
megabored · 18/06/2012 16:05

poosh what a comparison. Grin
I am actually just surprised at the way kumon polarises people. I did not expect thus thread. I began this as such an innocent question. As I have said before, I have found everyone's insight really useful. I remain neutral like Switzerland. Wink

OP posts:
tethersend · 18/06/2012 16:05

"Counting beans or doing arty farty things are clearly not enough if you want to stay competitive at an International level. The British education system is clearly failing to produce engineers and scientists."

How on earth then do we explain Finland's ranking in the international educational data for reading, maths and science when their children do precisely this until they start school- at seven years old?

"Surely not all these parents are, as a certain poster puts it, victims of a business that preys on insecure parents."

An international business which preys on people's insecurities? That would be absurd

PooshTun · 18/06/2012 16:05

"how do you know?"

know what?

megabored · 18/06/2012 16:07

"think op had already decided anyway" from about

OP posts:
PooshTun · 18/06/2012 16:08

"I am actually just surprised at the way kumon polarises people"

Its not kumon. Anything that smacks of pushy parenting polorises people.