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Original poster

Help with phonics/spelling

30 replies

accountantsrule · 13/06/2012 10:47

My niece is in Y2 and seems to be having difficulty with spelling.

My SIL doesn't really know what to do and although practices her spelling list every day I heard her saying that when DN couldn't spell 'found' she was trying to tell her that its spelt like the 'could' 'would' family. I corrected her on this and she got a bit shirty with me but actually then admited that she was struggling with it as it just didn't seem to be going in and she was frustrated at not being able to help.

She is on gold level reading books so absolutely fine for her age (she is 7 - sep birthday) but seems to struggle to translate phonics into spelling. Her reading is better on sight as opposed to blending words IYSWIM.

I said to her, what letters make an 'ow' sound. She said ou and ow, so I said so how do you sell found then. She spelt it perfectly.

How can my SIL help her to translate the phonics into the spelling, are there any good resourses she can use to help, I think SIL needs some help herself as she doesn't really understand the phonics that well really.

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learnandsay · 13/06/2012 10:57

Sounds like your SIL could do with a phonics crash course.

I'm anticipating this problem with my daughter and we treat spelling and reading completely differently. We find it hilarious that sight, light, fight and so on are spelled s-ih-gu-h-t and so on. And every day I tell her that most of the time in English words are spelled in one way and pronounced in another way altogether. So, she's growing up with an overall expectation that though you can sound words out and read them, it doesn't work in reverse. In reverse you just have to know how to spell lots and lots of words.

learnandsay · 13/06/2012 11:06

I don't know if our school encourages "phonic spelling". But if it does I'm going to discuss not using it with my daughter. I believe that's making life hard for the children. They might as well learn to spell properly right from the start.

Original poster
accountantsrule · 13/06/2012 11:17

Its hard for me to advise her as I have had the complete opposite experience with DS1.

His phonics knowledge has always been so advanced he can spell pretty much anything as there is a phonic rule for every sound as many of the teachers on here have explained. He knew all the phonics sounds so could read any word when he started school and then in turn could spell anything.

Sight is not spelt how you have described, the advanced phonics teach that 'igh' is the 'eye' sound as is 'ie' 'y' etc so I think its misunderstood by many people, it is spelt s-igh-t so is actually a fairly easy word to spell or read if the child knows their phonic. You are actually telling you DD incorrectly if I understand the method properly (sorry I am not being rude just explaining how I understand it).

I truely believe it makes life really easy for the children if taught correctly!

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learnandsay · 13/06/2012 11:22

Well, possibly, but I'm not teaching my daughter phonics. I'm teaching her to read and write. She knows how to spell sight, fight, right and so on because they are spelled the way they're spelled. She knows how they're spelled and spells them that way.

(I also don't really trust phonics. I think quite a bit of it is bunkum.)

Original poster
accountantsrule · 13/06/2012 11:26

But if she knew the sound 'igh' she would be able to spell them anyway and any other similar words so it makes no difference really.

TBH I don't really want to get into an arguement about phonics as I know from other threads you don't agree with them or with the schools using them so its a completely different issue. I understand what you are saying though and I did feel the same until the school explained them and that something like 'fight' isn't a tricky word as there is a phonic rule for it, I am now converted Grin.

SIL just needs a bit of help to help DN on her way with spelling and at the moment so any advice on useful materials is welcome.

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redskyatnight · 13/06/2012 11:30

My DS doesn't read using phonics (though he was taught them). It's causing him no end of problems now with his spelling (unfortunately he doesn't have the right sort of memory to "just remember a word is spelt that way"). "sight" is actually a phonetically regular word, though you do have to "know" that the middle sound is igh. But at least spelling it "sit", "site" or "syt" would be phonetically plausible.

learnandsay · 13/06/2012 11:33

Yah, ok. Let's agree to disagree about phonics. But I still don't really understand how knowing how things sound helps you spell perfectly in English because there are so many words which sound the same but are spelled differently, there, their, flew, flu and so on, or contain such differential elements.

Original poster
accountantsrule · 13/06/2012 11:35

For some reason she just can't relate her phonics knowledge to spelling a word, she can get the beginning letter and the end letter usually but just not the phonic sound in the middle. Maybe learning by sight will be better for her, I don't really know.

She can write fairly well but puts capitals in randomly in the middle of sentences and sometimes words.

I feel that SIL is pushing her a lot as is frustrated she doesn't fully understand it but part of me feels that she is only 7 still and it will come eventually. It didn't help that DS (18 months younger) kept spelling the words for her as he didn't really understand what the problem was. SIL told him that not everyone is good at spelling and that DN is good at things he isn't (WTF? a bit childish) I don't think she really meant it but is just frustrated I guess.

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Original poster
accountantsrule · 13/06/2012 11:37

because u and ew and oo are in the phonics list for the same sound, there is still some memory involved of course! I know it works for DS but that doesn't mean its the best/only method that will work for everyone!

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Original poster
accountantsrule · 13/06/2012 11:40

oo may not actually be right in that instance - my DS knows the phonic well not me clearly Grin

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learnandsay · 13/06/2012 12:13

How would you spell heist if you'd never heard the word before and were being asked to use phonics?

Original poster
accountantsrule · 13/06/2012 12:28

I have no idea really, is ei is one of the 'eye' sounds then the correct spelling would be a plausible phonics spelling but I have to be honest my knowledge is good enough to help my 6 year old who has a reading age of 12 as he knows more than me with regards to the phonics.

Hyst or histe would me the most obviously I guess as it seems the silent e is a rule most kids pick up really easily. There must still be some memory required but I guess that phonics is more useful for reading as with a full phonics knowledge you can read everything pretty much but with regards to spelling there is more than one choice I suppose!

Learnandsay - I don't think you are wrong in what you are saying at all but either way DN is struggling with knowing them by sight or by using phonics so its a bit of a nightmare!

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Original poster
accountantsrule · 13/06/2012 12:29

I meant my knowledge is 'only' good enough to help my 6 year old

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BeckSharp · 13/06/2012 22:50

accountantsrule for help with learning to spell get your sister to try the "Apoles and Pears" series of spelling workbooks. You get them from the Sound Foundations website. It's all very well people disagreeing with phonics but for many children it's their only hope! These books really work and a parent can do it with child very easily.

BeckSharp · 13/06/2012 22:51

apoles apples...

Original poster
accountantsrule · 14/06/2012 10:23

Thanks BeckSharp, I will have a look for these.

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mrz · 14/06/2012 18:54

learnandsay Wed 13-Jun-12 11:06:41

I don't know if our school encourages "phonic spelling". But if it does I'm going to discuss not using it with my daughter.

Sorry but all spelling is phonic so how do you want her to spell?

Feenie · 14/06/2012 19:25

And do you plan to discuss the school 'not using' everything you don't happen to understand with your daughter? If so, then I recommend home schooling strongly.

Original poster
accountantsrule · 14/06/2012 20:07

I am glad you are on here Mrz I have been recommended Apples and Pears, are there any other tips you have I can pass on.

learnandsay - you have hijacked my thread Grin

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StuckStuckStuck · 14/06/2012 20:12

learn and say "She knows how to spell sight, fight, right and so on because they are spelled the way they're spelled. "

Erm, ok, so what - you're teaching her to spell every single word as a unit, then? Does she have a mahoooooooooooosive visual memory? She'll need it.......

StuckStuckStuck · 14/06/2012 20:12

accountants - I do apologise! Welcome back to your thread!

Original poster
accountantsrule · 14/06/2012 20:13

Aw thanks Stuck!

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mrz · 14/06/2012 20:17

I like Apples and Pears it works for children who need some help with spelling.

I like to draw a line for each sound (not letter) and work through the word. If she picks the wrong way to spell the sound ask if she knows another way or just tell her that in this word it is written this way. Get her to write it correctly.

Original poster
accountantsrule · 14/06/2012 20:22

Thanks Mrz

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learnandsay · 15/06/2012 10:19

Don't worry accountants! Your thread is safe!