In which year is column subtraction (with carrying) of 3+ digits normally taught?

[Iamnotminterested]

Thankyou in anticipation!

That's interesting - I know from when friends DC were doing entrance exams, that using the NC methods put the state school pupils at a disadvantage as they generally take longer to work out that way.
And they find it hard to switch to the quick methods if they are left doing the other ones for too long - DS is still reluctant to do long multiplication, preferring the grid method!

Year 3 here

The NC doesnt state any method for teaching calculations.

However the old numeracy strategy (which was not compulsory but nearly all schools used) was quite prescriptive, and many schools continue to use the methods in it. However schools have always had the freedom to teach any calculation methods they choose.

Schools choose to use what parents often see as complicated methods in order for children to have a deeper understanding of what actually happens when you add, subtract etc.

Hockey - that's good to know. I think the challenge (understandably) is adapting the teaching to the child. If a child understands (and I mean really understands) what they are doing with a straightforward method, then there is little point teaching more long-winded methods. If, OTOH, they don't "get" it, then you need to keep trying different methods until they do.

Easy enough with 1 child. Close to impossible with 30.

DS1 has been doing it lots this year - Y5, but then strangely DS2 has also been doing it recently and he's in Y3 at the same school (and he's definitely not top set material!!).

Oh great - so things keep changing all the time - we're coming back to the UK next month and I have no idea what on earth chunking is . DD worked out how to do column addition (including carrying across) multiple digits herself, all because they did column addition (old style) for 2 digits at school. But she is in France, and they evidently like tradition . She does it in her head sometimes, and she seems to find it very logical, or at least she explains what she is doing pretty well and it sounds like what I knew as carrying across to me.

With grid multiplication / splitting hundreds, tens and units, DD works it out in her head, and then fills in the method after, whilst having a massive strop and me shouting at her telling her she has to do it because the teacher says so! She can't understand why she is being asked to do it, when apparently she finds it easier to not bother. She did alot of tactile maths when she was little (Montessori stuff), so she can visualize it very well.

I find what you are saying Tilly really interesting - so maybe I'll let her do it her way, as she clearly understands it and can relate it to real life etc, as it takes her 6 times as long to fill in the method as it did to work out the answers. So if she does it her way, when we get to 11+, she'll be alot quicker!

Stealth - if a child does 'get it' then the more informal methods shouldn't be a barrier as they will be able to understand what is being taught, and the teacher can move them onto more formal methods more rapidly than some of the others in the class.

When I hear complaints that a child is being confused or held back by these methods then usually it is because they dont understand what is happening when you calculate, they have simply learnt a method instead.

If you have a teacher who is poor at differentiation then yes it can hold them back, but for a child being taught by a compentant teacher who is able to differentiate effectively there will not be an issue.

They may not be a barrier, hockey, but, exactly like ohmygosh's DD, DS finds them annoying and resents spending time showing convoluted working out to an answer which he got in his head. He is neither confused nor held back, just narked - but it doesn't seem to happen any more now he is in a year where they have streamed sets and excellent teachers.

As I said stealth, if you can differentiate effectively he will be moved on. If a child is able to get all the answers correctly and easily they obviously need more challenging work.

However one disadvantage to just working it out in your head is that when the answer is wrong, I haven't a hope of figuring out where the misconception is and thus rectifying it!

Hi, my DD started this in yr 4 and began "carrying" at the beginning of yr 5. She finds it alot easier than the way they used to do it and it clicked straight away with her.

Oh I do agree, and constantly re-iterate the need to show working and so does his teacher (appealing to logical DS by showing him the mark distribution) - it is just nice that he is now allowed to show how he did work it out instead of how he was "supposed" to.

My DDs did this in Yr 3, but are both top set - sums like 384 - 295 pretty routine stuff, not a number line in sight.

They were both taught chunking but know traditional long division as well. Actually since having chunking explained to me by a maths teacher I can understand the appeal - it does allow you to divide big numbers by other big numbers without needing paper.

DD has done 3 figure column addition this year, she's in yr2 and goes to a Manx school. No idea what set she's in (if any). We're moving to England this year, I hope she doesn't have to go back and learn all these long winded ways of addition.

DS2 is top set Y3, has just started doing column subtraction like this. DS1 on the other hand, did this at home with me in Y1. He is a bit maths-whizzy though, his maths now in Y5 is better than mine.

Though my Y3 DS2 has been using chunking since Y2 for more complex sums.

He can't talk using correct grammar (he still says thing like "I chasded that butterfly"), yet he understands fairly difficult maths for an 8yo. There's no understanding some DC!!

And not one of my 3 DC has ever got on with number lines. Randomly, my dyslexic, discalculic DD only 'got' maths at all when she went to Secondary, and they taught her the columns method. It seemed to suddenly make sense to her like that, whereas the primary had been insistent on number lines, and chunking etc, which she just couldn't 'get'. The primary were insistent that those methods were easier for someone with those issues to understand.

Now I try each method out at home, and find the one that works best for each DC.

redsky, I'd love to know what your DS's method is called as that's how I do it in my head! Despite being arithmetically able and having only been taught 'carrying' and 'borrowing', my brain decided to do the adding-up-to thing all by itself. It probably came from working out change, before tills for the mentally addled were invented.

The new draft maths curriculum introduces column addition in KS1

mrz There are undoubtedly children who will be ready for this, but the whole class???

media.education.gov.uk/assets/files/pdf/p/draft%20national%20curriculum%20for%20mathematics%20key%20stages%201%202%20primary%20%20%20%2011%20june%202012.pdf

Interesting. At a brief scan, it looks like the expectations are more in line with those of private schools. It will be interesting to see how the full range of state primaries implement the curriculum. If it becomes statutory, of course.

We have 2 years to wait now ...it was intended for 2013

My DD, in a French school, has done this in Y3 equivalent - column addition, column subtraction and column multiplication. Division will be in Y4 equivalent.

In the French NC column addition starts in Y2 equivalent.