Incident at Brownies, need help on how to approach

[paddlinglikehell]

When I picked dd (Yr2), up from Brownies last week, I was told that another child had 'attacked' her. They were playing a game and this child got extremely distressed and upset, a result of which she then transfered her anger onto dd. The leaders said dd was 'very good about it and they had made up'.

I didn't think anymore, but dd kept talking about it and it obviously had upset her, she then told me that this child had actually thrown herself on her, biting her hair and her head, which hurt, on looking she actually had a bite mark in amongst her hair behind her ear, a friend pulled her off, but also was kicked, before the leaders got involved. I rang the friends mum, who also dropped this child back home and she confirmed what happened and she had mentioned it to the parents, who didn't seem too surprised, but were cross with their dd.

(This is the same child who at my dd's old school, strangled her in reception and there was a bit of an inquest, although I wasn't told this at the time, just that dd had been hurt and her neck was red and marked)

We haven't discussed what happened since, but do want to make sure nothing like this happens again. The leaders probably didn't know about the bite, but I feel I should mention it.

What do you think I should say to the leaders and what should I expect of them? I know they can't watch them all the time, but can I ask that this child is always surpervised, or is this over the top? I am not the most confident of people when it comes to confrontations and demands, hence not spoken to the childs parents, who I think have been away anyway.

Sorry for the long post, but any help would be appreciated.

Id be insisting the other child is removed from the group until this has been investigated further. Is she still at your DDs school? id be talkin to the headmistress

WOW, this other girl sounds like a right one!

It is the brownies responisblity to keep your daughter safe while she is with them. i would speak to Brown owl and ask if the incident has been reported to head office. if it hasnt, insist that it should be, and ask for a copy of the report.

If this other child cant contain herself then she shouldnt be there. i'm sorry if this offends anyone but, come on, they are kids and you DD has a right not to be attacked.

you seem to be saying that brown owl would have done more if your dd hadnt taken it so well.... THAT is out of order

Yes ask for her to be removed, she doesn't have an automatic right to join the brownies.
(and biting must be against the BGL)

I think it would definitely be appropriate to mention it to the brownie leaders. Say that you could see your daughter had been bitten, and that there is a history of this child being violent to your daughter, and could they make sure they keep a close eye on the other child. I don't think you have to have a confrontation, I would think that the leaders would be receptive to a request for closer supervision given the circumstances.

As a brownie leader, I would want to know about it and I would then take it higher up for advice before I made a full decision as we are meant to be 'inclusive' but sometimes you need to protect the others first and foremost.

If you feel it's not being taken seriously you can try your local girl guiding hq for further advice.

I would tell the brown owl about the bit and also the history with the other girl -I would ask her to be more closely supervised - at 6 or 7 this is in my view unsual behaviour -
wouldn't raise with the child's parents

Horrific. I would request a meeting with brown owl and in no uncertain terms state you are not happy with how this has been handled. I think the other girl should be held off from attending after attacking another girl like this.
Really awful and not the norm.

Hi. I didn't want this to go unanswered. As a Guide leader, I would suggest that you email/call/text the leaders and ask if you can have a word before the next meeting, or at a convenient time. I would suggest properly before the meeting, rather than just as everyone is arriving, as that time tends to be really busy and it would probably be better if you weren't trying to have that conversation in the hustle and bustle of all that.

Is there a specific history between the girls, or do you think that your DD just happened to be the unfortunate person next to the other girl at a bad time, twice? It would make a difference, I think, if this is just two isolated incidents, or does this girl often lash out?

The leaders will probably not feel able to discuss the other girl in depth, but it is very valid for you to discuss the impact of her behaviour on your DD. As a Guider I would definitely like to know if there is a previous history between two girls - we can't do anything to help if we don't know about it... If there is a specific personal history then I would be looking to make sure that the two girls are placed in different sixes, and generally kept in different groups for activities where possible. That would be easy to do discreetly, for your DD.

I assume that the other girl is also seven - is that right? At that age I'd like to think that if it is an isolated temper tantrum then a close watch and being quick to divert her would be OK until she matures - again, having one of the leaders close by at all times is easy to arrange without making a big deal of it to the Brownies as a whole. Would that reassure you?

If she is regularly violent like this, however, then as a leader I would be looking to find a one-on-one helper for her, as an extra adult to the normal leadership team (unless your Brownies have a lot of leaders already, in which case they are very fortunate and I am envious!). Ideally, that wouldn't be a parent, though, as having someones mum in all meetings can be difficult all round for a lot of reasons. But adult volunteers don't grow on trees, so maybe there might have to be a parent around for a while. Guiding should be inclusive and this can mean that we make extra provision for individuals - but this does need to be carefully managed so that it is a positive experience for everyone.

Gosh - that moved quickly! I would also like to mention that the leaders are probably not "thinking nothing more of it". If this had happened in my district then by this point there would already have been phone calls made to the district commissioner and maybe even the other girl's parents already. I would think that most Guiders would probably be cautious of going into too much detail with you on the night in question about what will be done, because it won't be a snap decision - I would expect it to be carefully thought out and action taken with advice and thought. Please don't think that it is automatically being swept under the carpet: in my experience it will be anything but. Please do call the Brown Owl and ask to discuss it with her.

Thank you for all your replies, I didn't realise it would be taken so seriously!

To answer your questions....there isn't really any history between them, they have always been friends, gone to parties, had playdates in the past, no problems, apart from this one time in Reception, when dd won a game and this other girl didn't like it. School didn't tell me who it was that had marked dd's neck, but obviously dd told me!!!! It was played down really, but I found out several months later that it had been taken quite seriously at the time within school. DD moved schools in September, so contact has actually been less since then. They are not in the same six.

I think dd was unlucky, as it was a hiding game (at a local campground they use during the summer) and was the last one back, this other girl was upset dd hadn't come out and became very upset and inconsolable, when dd did emerge she redirected onto her.

The leader seemed surprised, but did say that she believed this may happen at school?... but I don't know this and wondered if my friend who took the girl home had said this, as her dd is in the same class, I haven't spoken to her as they have been away this week. I do remember this child having a daily report book in Year 1, which was unusual, as I used to see her Mum looking at it when they came out, I don't recall seeing anyone else with one, so perhaps it is something she does.

Matey - The leader didn't give me the impression that they would have done more if dd hadn't been so good, but rather that she was very 'good' about it and the girls had subsequently made friends. dd is quite passive really, wouldn't never hit out - I told her once to do so at a bully and she was horrified that I even suggested it (that told me!!).

I will try and speak to them beforehand, I didn't get the impression that any further action would be taken, but who knows what goes on behind the scenes. There has been no meeting this week, but starts again next, so will get there early and speak to them.

Thanks, glad I am not being neurotic!

Are you able to get a photo of her injuries to keep as evidence ?

Hi
If it was me I'd write it all out (including the history) and ask for a response. I'd also give a copy to the school so they are aware and ask them to keep an eye out to make sure DD is safe. Seven is way to old for this sort of temper and it needs dealing with not sweeping under the carpet.

can I ask that this child is always surpervised

I think that would be very reasonable. Demanding that the girl leave Brownies completely would not be, imho. Not your call.

myBoys ---- This happened last week and there really is nothing left to see, it was more of a mark, with a slight graze, I think that area is quite hard to bite into thankfully.

Wherestheb--- I thought it was a bit odd for 7, the way dd explained it, not the usual way to hit out, very animalistic to me. We don't go to the same school anymore, we moved her at the start of Yr2, so have no contact with them, so it isn't relevant in respect of my dd to let them know.

Adventure --- I think that was the way I was going, I don't want any fuss to be honest, but just want to be assured that it isn't going to happen again. This girl is actually very fond of my dd and they always are pleased to see each other (maybe not now!), I don't want her excluded, just kept an eye on, which I am sure they will do. They didn't know that she had actually bitten her head as I didn't discover this until later when dd complained about it.

Because everyone here seems to think it serious enough, I am going to let them know that contact was made and that I am concerned that this doesn't happen again and they will take some steps to ensure the child is always supervised.

I am dreading it, but will keep you posted.

I am a bit puzzled by the biting in the head incident.Are you absolutely sure it is a bite mark?The head is very flat behiind the ear and no loose skin.It would surely be like trying to bite a wall?

I agree with all that JennyWren has said. (I'm a Brown Owl too).

ariadne1 - Yes there was definately a mark, not a full bite circle, but part of it, although not easy to see amonst the hair, there isn't anything there now, although dd did say she shoutedreally loudly today to Daddy who was cutting the grass and felt her head hurt again - first she has mentioned it since it happend!?

Apparently, the child pushed her head down and forward and bit her hair and head from the back. If you put your hand behind your right ear, move past the hairless fleshy bit and then up to 11.o clock 2 inches, it is there I think you are right, it was hard to bite, which is why there wasn't much to see. I couldn't quite believe it either, seems such a strange thing for a child to do. The other child who pulled her off confirmed it to her mum, although I spoke to her briefly the same night, I haven't seen them since, because they have been away.

Thanks anyway everyone.

My ds2 got a bite mark in the same place when he was at nursery - so it is possible. His ear also came out in bruising a few days later. Along with the two other bite mark bruises that were under his t-shirt

Hi

Just thought I would update you. I had a word with the Leader and explained that dd did have a bite mark (she still says it feels bruised), and that I was concerned that this had happened.

I said, I would like reassurance that they would not allow this to happen again and that they would ensure that this child was supervised.

The leader said to me that....it was impossible to watch them all of the time at this venue (sort of camp site area for the summer), but they would now be aware of issues between dd and this child. I explained that usually there were no issues, although this one incident in Reception, but nothing since. I did say I think the other child does have some sort of behaviour problem, as at school they had a daily report book and I didn't feel that biting another childs head was quite normal for a 7 year old.

I then said that I would hope they would not put them in the same groups, or allow them to go off together.

It took a lot of courage for me to say this, but I got the impression that I was a being a bit of a nuisance in bringing it up and I am pretty sure that nothing formal has been done about it, they haven't even spoken directly to the other girls parents.

I am now beginning to worry about this group and their organisation, as the main gate to the venue was locked and the keyholder hadn't turned up, which meant all children had to climb a high five bar gate to get in and walk up a fairly long drive to the site. I did ask another leader what would have happened if they had needed to get an ambulance up there in case of an emergency and they just shrugged their shoulders. This venue is literally fields, trees, woods and a pond, a great place to be for the summer, but lots of associated risks.

I am happy to leave it for now and see how things go.