Appeal - missing info

[Yvonne99]

We are getting ready for primary school ( reception) appeal. Catholic school. Criteria:

1. children in care who are baptised catholics
2. children baptised catholics who live in parishes: X, Y, Z

they did not go below the second criteria this year.

We are in criteria 2.

Last year they had 26 baptised children from the 3 parishes so they took some kids from the further criteria. This year they had 38 applications for the 2nd criteria. We do not live so far to go below the line, we believe.

We have just received appeal documents from the diocese and I think some info is missing.
First of all we did not get a guidance notes as it says in the covering letter!!! How could that happen? Is that something we shall point out???
We got few pages of "stage one" which include: statement for non-admission, minutes of the meeting of admission panel, copy of admissions policy. And few pages "stage two" which is a copy of our appeal letter.

Stage one takes place at 10am and all appellants will be present. What is that going to be about? Do we need to go?
Stage two for our daughter is at 3pm - am I right that it will be the individual hearing and discussion?

Now, I thought they will send us a map of parish boundaries. I spoke to school and they said that diocese will send us that with the appeal documents.
Secondly as distance has been used to allocate places we expected them to show how this was applied to our application compared to those offered a place. Can we get that before the hearing?

The letter says that they used distance from school as per details received from council - who shall give us more details - school or council?
We need to check the parish boundaries as well as there are some areas closer to school that we are but they belong to other school.

How can I prepare for the hearing if I do not have all above info and where can I get it? Thank you :)

Thank you for your reply. We will be pushing to find out the details of distance criteria. I phoned school at some point and they told me that the furthest distance taken was 2355 km while we are 2850. Can I get it in writing? I do not know how it was measured ( they told me they dot that info from council) and what it's more how it is compared to children taken. I know there were few kids applying who live closer but they are not in parishes X, Y, Z.
I thought stage 1 will be for all parents at the same time - shall I ask and discuss it while other parents are present?

You should have had that in writing already and it should also be stated in their case. The school's admission criteria should tell you how distance is measured.

Yes, stage 1 will be for all parents. If you have any doubts about distances or anything else to do with the way admissions have been administered you must raise them in stage 1. The chair of the appeal panel may ask you to bring it up in stage 2 but that is for them to decide.

Thank you for claryfying that for me.
Who shall I chase for that missing info? Governors who made the decision, council or diocese who sent me the sppeal forms?
Shall I wrtite a letter and ask for the reply at least 7 days before the hearing?
Can I ask them not only for our distance and last taken but also for a comparison to those taken? I want them to proof that all children taken belong to the 3 parishes - Do they have to provide me with that info before the hearing?

Yes, school does its own admissions and the decision was made by the governors. However all papers for the appeal came from diocese. The appeal panel was appointed by the diocese.
I find it very confusing who I shall approach for all the explanation. I phoned council - they said it's school's own decision who to take. School says they got the distance from council and when asked the school for parish boundaries they said I would get them will all papers from diocese. Diocese did not send much info at all, and people from diocese will be in the appeals pannel:(
I am stressed as I am not able to prepare my case, time is running and it seems they treat me like an idiot and decision was made a while ago. On the hearing day I am sure there will be rush and lots of stress and I will not be ablt to proof they disadvantaged my daughter without full explanation in advance.
There is an area closer to the school that is not in Parish X,Y or Z. Very posh people with few private schools around. I met those parents at school open day, I am not sure if they got a place but I want to check that.
I am afraid that we as foreigners and living in a counil area were disadvantaged by that outstanding school:(

Can't really add much to what Tiggytape has said other than to query how the admission criteria is laid out. Does it actually say baptised catholics in parishes A, B and C or does it say baptised catholics in parish A, then parish B and then parish C. I presume that the defining criteria was then distance but it makes a big difference if they were treated separately or as one area covered by AB and C.

As a matter of interest what would people who are catholic say to me suggesting that when it says baptised catholic, that to me that means anybody who has been baptised in any church, including non catholic, but has subsequently become a practicing catholic. What do people think?

Thank you all for your replies.
It is annoying that despite having the right to appeal they do everything to discourage you.
The second criteria says: Children who are baptised Catholics and who live in the parishes x, y and z - so I assume that they treat it as one area. Shall I double check by asking them to confirm? We are in parish y.
When it comes to baptism do you think I could ask them if they gave priority to children baprised in their church ( parish x) or baptised in early years rather then 6 months ago?

What are subsequent criteria on the list? Is there a criteria for baptised catholics who don't live in parish x, y & z? If not, then I would definitely clarify if they are in criteria 2.

I regard to the differences between parish x, y or z, I would hazard that since they have provided you with a distance, it's a distance thing, not a parish thing - otherwise the min distance could be greater than yours (if the outer side of parish x is further than you in parish y).

Good luck.

I got reply from school's bursar and I am not closer to finding their mistake. :(

My questions were:
I would like to request the following information to be sent to us in writing.

1. The furthest distance offered this year to a child applying under admission category 4.2
2. The distance to my house that you have calculated or have accepted from the Local Authority as being correct.
3. Details of the system used to calculate distances for admission purposes.
4. As distance has been used to allocate places can you show how this was applied to our application compared to those offered a place.
5. Confirmation of where the boundary lines lay for parishes: X,Y,Z. I have been promised a map to show this but have not received anything to this date.
6. Confirmation that children living closer to the school but not inside Parishes X,Y,Z have not been accepted to the school under admission category 4.2.
7. Confirmation that all three parishes were treated as one area , not separately as X,Y and Z
8. confirmation that you did not apply any other tie-breaker.

That's what they said:

1. Furthest distance ooered in 4.2 was 2212.16 metres
2. Our distance to school: 3156.92 metres
3. Distances used were supplied by School Admissions at Council - please contact them for detials
4. Our application was placed at number 35
5. Maps are available to view at the schhol on reguest. I can confirm that your application was place in 4.2 by virtue of residence in Y Parish.
6. Places were offered per school's addmission policy

7.Places were offered per school's addmission policy

1. distance from school was used as tie breaker.

I am not happy with their reply. I am going to contact them to view the maps and contact LA for system they used to calculate the distance. But how am I going to see who they accualy taken?

I think that you have got the vast majority of the information that you are going to get before the appeal. You now know that you were considered as a category 2 applicant and that the last applicant under that category was admitted at a distance of 2212.16 metres and that you were 35 in the list out of 38 in category 2.

According to the information supplied you live 3156.92 metres away. Given the accuracy of these figures I am assuming that these are straight line distances. So the first question has to be, does this distance for your house seem reasonable. If it does you have to accept that there is a very considerable distance, 945 metres, to the last applicant that was offered a place and therefore it is unlikely a mistake has been made. Also at place 35 that means that there are potentially 4 other applicants who live closer to the school than you.

The only area of concern is therefore whether all the 34 applicants that lived closer to the school than you were baptised catholics. It is the school's responsibility to accept that the applicants furnished an appropriate birth certificate and were considered baptised catholics.

There is a bit of question mark to me as to whether baptised catholic means a child who was baptised in a catholic church or it means a child who was baptised in any church but who is now demonstrating they are a catholic by attendance at church etc. I am sure that as far as the school is concerned it is the former.

Nobody is going to give you access to all the names and details of those that were admitted and I am afraid at the end of the day it is for you to prove that the school have done something wrong rather than they have to prove to you that they have done it right.

My main concern is if all kids who were offered a place ( live closer then we) are within parishers X,Y,Z. How to check that? I know they cannot give me details of those who were admitted but by I would expect some postcodes or street names ( not the house numbers). I believe scholl will always say they went according to the criteria as noone is able to check that!

admission - Baptised Catholic usually means 'baptised in the catholic faith' and, in our school at least, the certificate of baptism must produced as evidence of this, for all Catholic applicants. IIRC the school's admission criteria has a definition of 'Baptised Catholic'.

ChippyMinton, I agree with you and that is why "baptised in the catholic faith" is always a better, much more specific wording to put in admission criteria. If you also include a definition then that is good, but many do not. If you put in wooly words then people will always wonder what they mean and whether they can come up with a different version of what it means.
Experience at appeal panels has shown that some faith schools are rather cavalier in deciding what the words mean and in effect put in their own version of the criteria. Sorry i am just becoming more and more of a cynic with advancing age.

I cannot believe the game is over.
I am do dissapointed now... and sad. That school could have taken anyone accualy and they can never be checked it they were fair. The appeal panel was appointed by diocese so they will not be objective. What is the purose of appealing if their decision cannot be verified?
I wish I had given our priest some generous donation...

Thank you Tiggytape for all your help - much appreciated!

For the parish boundaries, have you checked your diocesan website? I know that here for example (RC Diocese of Westminster) the maps are published online.

I am sorry to be back but just got so upset, that I feel like crying....
In the reply we got from school they said that the parishes maps are available at the school.
I went there today. I was hoping to take a copy of them ( as I have already got them from each Parish separately but wanted to compare to schools) and what I was a very poor copy . Streets were hardly seen... It look as a plain paper with a baby marking on it.
What was more annoying there were only two areas marked: Border lines for Parish X and border lines for Parish Z. Our Parish was not even on the map!!!
I wish I had recorded my chat to that boursar.
She kept asking what I need the map for, she keep saying it will not help me anyway.
I asked her if that's the map the admission panel used to make their decission od admissions and she said yes: " That's the only map we have and it's a very old map"
When I asked her how they know where is my Parish she said: we look at the postcode, pin you on the map and that's how we know. I asked how they know where the border is. She said they look at other Parishes nearby and they know. So I asked if the first looking at their ( other?? Parishers maps??) to exclude children and she said yes. Silly isn't it?
Why do they treat peple like idiots???
She said that a map will be available to hearing day.
I think they will not take my daughter now anyway as my chat with that lady was so unpleasant...

Can someone please comment on what I have experienced today? Is it just me finding problems?