What is the fairest admission policy?

[AngelEyes46]

There seems to be so many dcs that don't get their first choice. In my la, one primary school admitted to 0.137 miles - it's madness! What is the fairest way? My children go to a VA state school and I know there's a lot of controversy and don't want go down the argument of faith/grammar/independent/state but what do people think? Should every school be based on distance or should it go back to the old days where children were interviewed? Since joining mnet and going through the admission process myself, I don't think anyone realizes how much stress is involved. My ds's are now at secondary and dd in year 6 (pri) but I still remember the worry for primary and in some ways secondary was even worse as the dcs have an input as to where they want to go.

The system in Scotland does just seem to be a lot les stressful all round, kids are guaranteed a place in their catchment school, and you can make a placing request for another school if you wish, and in that case similar priorities to the English system apply.

Scottish system appears very sensible - presumably you don't have a limit on reception class sizes, though?

We don't have reception in scotland, but the limit in P1 is 25 per class.

choice is an illusion for most/many. If you don't want your children to go to your nearest school you can apply to any but you'd be lower down the priority list.

i think the Scottish system is much better.

It just seems to work without all the angst, and what must be a complete administration nightmare, of the English system. You do get inflated house prices in catchment, but I think you get that in England as well anyway.

Scottish system is definitely the best.

I've never heard of a child not getting accepted in their catchment school (although sometimes for oversubscribed RC schools, non RC children without siblings at the school do not get a place - but they would definitely get a place at their non-denominational school).

Re AngelEyes comment, "What if i want my dc to go to not-nearest school?" Answer - move house before the admissions process begins. And if you can't afford / don't want to move, then you take your chance of dc not being offered a place at their no-nearest school! Easy!

Yes but I don't see how even a Scottish system couldn't cope with 100 extra children in a year, but no additional places. What would happen then? Here we have handkerchief houses being squeezed into previously unoccupied land, but no corresponding increase in primary school places. With more places available there wouldn't be such a problem. We choose to go to our nearest crow flies school A, which is a bit leafier, more MC, equally people living closer to school A, prefer school B (0.1km nearer walking) which is seen as less snobby. If there was a defined catchment for the two schools, neither group would be happy. With increased class sizes at school A many parents did vote wiith feet (or car), but when intake halves again, all but siblings and SN will be squeezed out.

In a fairly static population there will probably still be some who want their pfb to go across town to legendary school y where children are all reading war and peace in yr 1 and who are dissapointed, but in an expanding population with no space for school expansion, I don't see that any system with fixed class sizes would work.

Sorry 'could cope', must stop my ds waking me up in the night to go on MN!

I think the Scottish system is fairer because it guarantees you a place in a school which, while it may not be your nearest school, is actually accessible, so no-one, other than in very rural areas, is forced to travel miles, as there is no such thing as a black hole for schools. Also, if you move into an area mid-year you will still get a place in the catchment school. If you don't wish your catchment school, you can make a placement request for an alternative and if there is space, you will get a place or, if space is limited, each case is judged on its own merits - though sibbling links usually will get you a place. With no primary school league tables, there is less flocking to the preceived premier division school. The downside, certainly at primary level, is that there are fluctuations in numbers, so composite classes are pretty widespread.

Scottish children don't necessarily go to their nearest school, but their catchment school. I think the definition of catchment is slightly different in that the catchment doesn't shift every year depending on the no of children. Catchments are set taking into account the density of housing and the capacity of the school, and very rarely shift. So you would know for example that number 3 in a certain road was in the catchment for a particular school, and perhaps number two in a different catchment. If hundreds of extra houses are built then sometimes catchment areas shift to reflect that, but the houses would be put in the catchment of a school that has the capacity. That is pretty rare though and you can imagine the uproar!!

Yes, but how would it deal with the situation where all the classess and the surrounding classes are full. What would happen if I moved to Scotland tomorrow into a catchment where all the places in P1, P2 and P3 were full, as were all the places at schools within a 5 mile radius of my house, and none of the schools had room to expand. Where would my 5 year old go to school? That is the reality around here, or at least it will be next year when all the bulge classes stop as no more room to build.

I don't think it is about fairness, yes it would be nice to be guaranteed a place in an outstanding school with no disruptive pupils, but what is more important is every child having a place. It is not fair when a sibling gets a place just because the family once rented a flat next to the school for 6 months, but beyond that much of the problem 'down south' is just too many children and not enough spaces. Guaranteeing a space isn't an option as there aren't the spaces to offer.

I agree league tables may distort the picture, but for many people it only influences your order of preference. We still put down all our local schools unless you are very naive it's just that in years to come putting down all the local schools still won't help if the schools are bursting and there is no space to expand. Maybe the fairest thing is for 65000 children to move to Scotland, at least then they would get free uni spaces too. Tempting! I love Scotland!

The English system doesn't deal with that situation either, but what you're describing isn't a flaw in the admissions system, but a lack of forward planning by the local authority. If there aren't enough school places, then there aren't enough school places and no change to the admission system will solve that.

I believe in Scotland they try to leave a couple of places spare for kids moving into catchment outside the normal admission process and in one of the local primaries one of the classes has 30+ kids in, but has two teachers to comply with the min class size.

Glasgow is clearly not as big as London or Birmingham, but is still fairly large and I haven't heard of there never being a school place for any child.

I think the fairest system should be

1. Children in care
2. Those with siblings attending school
3. Those living closest to the school.

In terms of Church schools those baptised, attending church and living closest

I don't think there should be any more choice. Just go to your nearest school. Stop the flippin congestion and walk your kids to school.

I think with any system there are winners and losers. If you are a winner you think the system is fair ... the main problems with the current system seems to be in the SE.

Yes, but how would it deal with the situation where all the classess and the surrounding classes are full. What would happen if I moved to Scotland tomorrow into a catchment where all the places in P1, P2 and P3 were full, as were all the places at schools within a 5 mile radius of my house, and none of the schools had room to expand. Where would my 5 year old go to school? That is the reality around here, or at least it will be next year when all the bulge classes stop as no more room to build.

I don't think that would happen. In my authority, if a school is looking to get too full, there will be a cap placed and no placement requests will be accepted except sibblings. If things got more extreme, I would imagine that they would refuse sibbling requests but, as far as I know, it hasn't happened here. I think our circumstances are different in that you have pressure on schools in built up areas, whereas I live in expanding town, so the pressure is more on the suburban areas, where there is more physical space to expand.

Just go to your nearest school. Stop the flippin congestion and walk your kids to school.

I get the impression from mumsnet that many people would love to send their children to their nearest school, but that it is already full up with people who live even nearer.

I would live for my DC to go to one of the SIX schools closer to my house. The problem is that they are full in my DC's year groups, and as all of them are their own admissions authority, they can't be forced to go above 30 even in the Juniors. And they don't.

Unlike the school they are currently at, my seventh closest school. DS1 has 32 in his Y5 class with one teacher (though a very good one), DS2 has the 31st pupil joining his Y3 class in June (making his year group a year of 94 rather than the usual 60). They have run a Y6 class with 37 pupils in the past. They have even ran a Y2 class with 37 in the past, when my DD was there, with just one teacher ( a lot of 'excepted' pupils that year...).

Their school is the ONLY local school that is run by the LEA, hence taking ALL the overflow from the other local schools. That will stop in September when we become an Academy - turns out the main reason we will be the first Primary Academy in our town ( outstanding convertor) is so that the HT can stop running such large classes by controlling the schools admissions!

But that's the problem isn't it Cardy.

The whole admissions process is a actually all just a ruse to get parents fighting against each other, as a distraction from the fact that there aren't enough school places and that planning and schools provision are not joined up.

Like fighting in the market about how bread rations are divvied out, without challenging that they are rationed in the first place.

I have never fully understood why there is this unseemly scrap over places every year.
I remember reading an article by the BBC's senior education correspondent Mike Baker(?). He'd had to move to the US for a time, applied to the local school for a place for his daughter and was told to bring her along.
When he queried what would happen if there wasn't room for her, they said they'd just get another teacher in. No fuss, no bother.

When schools were opened up for any parent to apply to, that's supposed to be how it worked. Popular schools would increase, unpopular schools would shrink.

So what happened?? Why do parents have to scrabble over limited places? It just doesn't make sense!

Tanith it is a simple matter of population density, supply and demand. In London say, the population is larger than that of the whole of Scotland, the density in London is about 5000/km compared to 65/km in Scotland. In the USA most places are not densely populated, so the schools are probably already fairly large, and to add an extra classroom won't make too much difference. Children also don't necessarily move through the grades at the same rate so there must be more flexibility.

In the SE planning laws such as green belt etc means that expansion outside of towns is limited (not that I want fields built on). Space which becomes available costs a lot of money, is snapped up by property developers who want to build homes to sell, not schools which take up a lot of space and don't pay much in return. Homes are built, much to everyone's surprise, families move in, with children who want to go to school.

Add to this ecconomic instability, fewer parents choose private schools, people living in a 2 bed flat are trapped by -ve equity rather than selling and moving further out when #2 baby comes along. Demand for school places increases, but there isn't the space to build more classrooms, schools etc. The reasons behind the unseemly scrap are fairly straightforward, the solutions are moree elusive.

Cardymow,
Academies do not have complete control over the admission of pupils, all pupils still have the right to go to appeal and some who have good cases will get a place at the school providing that the school is playing by the rules.
My concern is that academy schools are more and more not playing by the rules and by appointing their own "independent " panel they ensure that the school gets what it wants.
It is a shame that the last government did not go forward with making it a legal requirement that all appeals had to go through the Local Authority, which is what Jim Knight as schools minister suggested.

distance with some random element.