Is the nursery class of a primary school to early to 'stretch' children?

[pushyisintheeyeofthebeholder]

a genuine question despite flippant nickname:

DD1 is 4. She's in the nursery class of a local primary, starting reception at another primary this September. Before starting in the nursery class she know all her letters, could write her name, knew numbers up to 100 etc. This year she seems to have learned less than nothing i.e. she's less sure of her letters and numbers than she was last summer. Ethos in the class is 'learning through play', which seems to be widespread but AIBU to think it's a bit of a wasted opportunity? The teachers told me cheerily at parents' morning that she'd started to write her name really well (which she's been doing for over a year) and could count up to 10!

I have friends who've sent their kids to pre-preps but DH and I decided not to go down that route. But while DD was on a par with those kids last summer they've continued to progress while she's stayed static. I've now started sitting down with her in the afternoon and doing some letters and numbers - I'm sure some people will think that's a bit pushy/she's too young to have any academic expectations placed on her. But if I don't do that it seems inevitable that she'll start off a step behind friends at private schools and that the gap will continue to widen as the years go by. Would be really interested to hear any thoughts on the matter...

Most nurseries will concentrate quite rightly on social skills, making friends, getting on with other children, having structure such as carpet time etc
Your child is going to be at school until they are at least 18
Nursery is time for playing
Chill and enjoy these early years
Also don't underestimate how much they are learning whilst playing

Thanks for the response. I guess you're right but she's been used to that sort of structure for a while (went to a playgroup three mornings a week the year before, gets on well with other kids etc) so it just seems a shame not to take advantage of the fact that she's happy to sit down and learn now some of the stuff that she'll have to know later. I suppose part of me feels it will relieve some of the pressure they come up against in schools later on too if they start earlier

I think you are worrying too much. What is important in nursery and Reception is all 'round learning - yes, enjoying books, numbers and writing, but also friendships, music, discovering the world around them.

To be honest, I think a child will progress further if they spend time playing imaginary games, going on bug hunts, and just playing.

(Btw, I'm actually a pushy mum, with a high achieving 8 year old and, it appears, a pretty bright 5 year old).

OK - thanks, ladies. Think I just needed to be told. She is the PFB after all so I guess a certain amount of unnecessary stressing is to be expected. DH is stressing about it even more, which is not helping. And DM keeps hinting that we should have done everything in our power to send her to a private school. Just need to block it all out and, as Svrider suggests, enjoy this time while it lasts.

She certainly does A LOT of the imaginary games stuff ? away with the fairies much of the time.

Ha, just reread my OP "she know all her letters" - oh the irony.

I never check my posts, hence they are full of typos.

I feel for you. For just this reason our DD is starting at the nursery at our local prep in September, we have been warned that she will stand still for at least the first year if not two of our village primary.

Don't get beaten up about it tho, if she is bright and interested in learning things and is really into imaginative play then you sitting down with her is the best thing. The learning is still fun, she gets to do it with her mummy which is even better, my parents spent years beating thenselves up over not being able to send me to private school like my cousins. What they invested instead of money was lots of time with me, supporting and helping me, I am well qualified and I enjoy a great career.
Ignore DM, carry on with what you are doing, money stress is a horrible atmosphere to be brought up in

Your dd's letters and numbers will likely come together again once she's in reception and (hopefully) they're doing phonics and maths every day.

Also, learning to read etc is not a race. By the time children get to 7 or 8, there's often no difference between those who learnt at 4 and those who learnt at 7. I'd see how reception goes, and go from there.

DD is in the nursery attached to the school that she will attend from september.

She gets 20mins a week 121 with the teacher to read/practice blending etc etc as most of the kids are learning C A T etc and DD is ahead (but not exceptionally so IMO - although school say otherwise, but its not a hugely academic school)

She wrote in her homelink book tonight "to miss XXX (her teacher - needed help with the spelling) I luff yu, from

See the bigger picture. Of course she could be learning stuff (any bright 3/4 year old could be), but crucially she is developing herself, her identity, her social skills, learning to learn. Children start losing their creativity from the age of 3 and it's pretty much all gone (re the childlike version of it) by 8. Some is to do with brain development, but some is our culture, expectations etc. So, no harm in going through some letters and numbers if you like, but she'll pick them up and do them in Reception anyway. I would treasure this time, and I agree with sittinginthesun, being able to play (often quite sophisticated) imaginary games, exploring the outdoors etc etc, is to be prized more than knowing/writing/reading at this age.

Forgot to add DD is irrationally excited as her teacher has found a book entitled "Peppa Pig meets the Queen" to read at their jubilee class party

simpson that sounds like a really good school

BigBird thanks for your feedback. We can afford it realistically but just decided that other factors (like her school being near, not having to coach her manically for tests aged 2.5 and 3.5, having local friends etc) were more important. We're in central London so the private alternatives are mostly real hothouses, it's all uber-competitive.

Rosebud I take your point and in fact have friends in Europe whose kids won't even start to read until 7 but based on literacy rates there compared with the UK's, they won't suffer for it. In theory I agree just can't help panicking when I see friends' kids appearing to learn so much more every day.

Tgger - your point about creativity is really helpful, thanks.

Tight - can I ask where you read about of how you know about the creativity thing. Just my 8yr dd, a highly imaginative child, has complained for the last few months that she is 'losing her imagination'.

Kind of guessed it was to do with development but fascinated that she has recognised something that actually happens.

Hi pushyisintheeyeofthebeholder

Can't offer any advice but I just wanted to say I have had exactly the same with my DD (born Feb 08, only child). Started nursery attached to primary school in September doing letters and numbers (though not to 100!) and amazing drawings and seemingly not far from reading. First week there she drew picture of self with all body parts present and straps on shoes and buckle on pinafore when most of the other children weren't even drawing faces. Downhill all the way since then.

I think some of it is dumbing down to fit in. Her drawing's picked up again now more of the other children are drawing recognisable things but the stuff she did in her first week is still the best stuff she's ever done there.

She was the only one writing her name in Sept but now there are plenty of other children writing, and writing neater than she can. I think this is because she has been merrily forming her letters however she likes and now that most of the children are ready they have started teaching them how to do them properly. Bit late for DD who now has to unlearn!

I was never pushy with her before she started at nursery, she was just interested and picked things up quickly. I don't particularly do anything schooly with her now as I think she's had enough after a morning at nursery anyway.

Unsure what to do for the best. Am hoping it will sort itself out in Reception but we only managed to get a place at our catchment school which has dreadful SATs!

fatfloosie - oh yes the drawing thing bothers me too. DD does really lovely pictures at home, houses, rockets full of colour etc - and at the end of a session at nursery they'll hand me a 'picture' she's done which is just a blob of paint on a piece of paper, maybe with some tissue stuck on. It feels like she's completely taking the piss sometimes and I'm just sorry they're not encouraging her to do more.

Having said that, I've been encouraged by what others on the thread have said and guess I just need to chill and see how it all pans out in reception

Hi, sorry, quoting a friend of mine who studies and writes about child development re the creativity thing but it makes sense to me. If you think a 3 year old struggles with what is fantasy what is reality to a degree, then a 5 year old will generally know the difference but often still engage in imaginary play and perhaps get scared of stories/plays as the difference is still a bit blurry. An 8 year old will know the difference completely, as we do.

heading off to bed shortly but many thanks for your responses

Play is an essential part of a child's physical, emotional, intellectual, social and cognitive development. As such it should be central to all early childhood education programmes.

At 4 years, rolling play dough or playing hopscotch will be of greater benefit with regards to reading and writing skills in the long run than rote learning the alphabet.

Tearing up little pieces of paper and sticking them on to a page helps develop fine motor skills, essential for handwriting.

As an example, current studies show that copying/tracing letters, the traditional way of learning to write, is of less benefit than physical exercises that build up up a child's physical co-ordination and hand and upper arm strength.

Personally I'd run a mile from a school that concentrated on teaching letters and numbers to young children. I certainly wouldn't pay for it. Spend your money on gym classes if you must or bring your child to a good playground. I'd recommend you Google the importance of play in early education for further information - there are many interesting and comprehensive articles on line that might offer you some reassurance ( and are definitely more articulate that I am at this time of night ).

It does sound a bit like you opted out of your 'hothouse' options but now want the state school to provide the same type of education. They can't do that.

The research shows that certain cohorts of children progress best by learning through play at that age.

However, not all cohorts make their optimal progress through this medium (I am on research and statistics here, no comment on individuals before anyone jumps in with a countering anecdote). In the type of group where children have already had a lot of experiential learning, high quality play and exposure to pre-academic skills at home better progress is made through more structured, adult led learning.

However, state schools necessarily have to draw a line of best fit through the needs of the children. As child initiated play suits more groups of children that is what they have to go with.

The uber-selective pre-preps mostly take children ready for more formal learning and those children are likely to progress better at the prep than in a state EYFS setting. Doesn't mean that if you put all the children in the EYFS setting in the prep they would all progress better there IYSWIM as many of them would not be suited to that.

Having the money to pay for a private school gives you the option to buy an education suited to your child rather than accept the line of best fit package.

Sorry if that's an unpopular view.

BTW no nursery provision is going to be devoid of play, but some will provide play AND structured learning.

EBD - yes, I see what you mean, that's a v clear and helpful explanation. That was my question really, whether it's realistic to expect a state school to differentiate learning from a young age (in a way that a private school is more likely to). I certainly wouldn't like her to be in an environment that's solely focused on structured learning, but if I'd realised it was purely going to be free play (with a short carpet time session at the end) for the entire year, I probably wouldn't have bothered moving her from her playgroup until reception.

ellie - it's a good point you make about the motor skills, that makes a lot of sense. And has seriously made me consider whether it's worth doing letters with DD at home at all for now.

As for the importance of play being central, I don't dispute that or the benefit of tearing and sticking. I just feel children should be encouraged to do their best, whatever that is. I don't mean they should be forced into reading or writing before they're interested, or made to sit down at desks for an hour at a time. But if they can actually draw something recognisable, why not encourage them to do that rather than heaping praise on them for putting a blob of paint on a piece of paper. There's lots of "oooh, look at this lovely picture DD has made for you" "well done, what a clever girl, you've written a C" etc... and of course positivity is important but praise becomes meaningless if everything they do, even if it's taken them no effort whatsoever, gets celebrated.

My third born is in nursery and has I think a comically pushy teacher who takes her aside each week to do some differentiated stuff. She is ahead but I don't really mind so long as she is learning all the important stuff, like not expecting to get her own way as she constantly does at home.
Like you, I'm in central London and we opted for state, but I've got a few years under my belt now so am more relaxed. My oldest was in absolutely no way advanced (on the contrary) and this was one of the reasons we didn't want to chance selective processes for schools. He went into reception with very little reading or writing. 4 years on and you really wouldn't know this. His writing (from what I've seen) is comparable to the prep school educated peers who were doing phonics when he didn't even know there was such a thing as letters. He reads whatever he wants to read (mostly the broadsheet football pages, but no matter). He got all 3s in ks2 sats and in the literature for UCS junior school they claimed that 'most' of their pupils managed this and this is a a good indicator of suitability for selective schools.
Yes I'm sure he could have been pushed more, in the same way that I could have probably potty trained him earlier. But I don't think tracing letters or learning times tables a year early is any more of a useful long-term achievement than wearing pants by 2.

Thanks PP - that's v encouraging. I think I'd be pretty happy if my 8YO read anything in a broadsheet by choice

With regards to drawing it is something that a child develops themselves, and is cross cultural. All children all over the world will progress through the same stages.
What looks like scribble to you and I is if you refer to the stages of drawing an important stage.
I am loving my 3 year olds circular doodling because I know it is the start of him drawing a face, which is the start of him drawing people.
I wouldn't dream if showing him how to draw a circle to become a face, because, he may not be at the physical stage to do it yet. And it will do him more harm than good. It is a skill that will develop over time. Once the foundations are laid you can encourage children in observational work to recognise things about what they are drawing. E.g drawing a flower talk about the long stem etc.

BTW painting skills lag a long way behind drawing skills, because even in homes where children have access to paint they don't use them as much as pens, pencils etc

I think that the blob of paint on the paper is important and worth praise because it is important to your child! Children are given lots of free rain at easels and just paint what they like for someone that they like.

More detailed adult led work comes later and may be in your DCs folder to bring home at the end of the year.