Any fellow teachers about? Advice re playtime behaviour needed.

[whatdyouthink]

At the school where I teach we have some very challenging Year 3 boys. Four in particular are very rough and defiant and struggle to play on the main playground with the other children without incident.

I have been asked to supervise some of these boys' playtimes in a very small sectioned off part of the playground and to act as 'playleader' with them. The idea that we will play some organised games together and then they will eventually be reintegrated into the main playground.

Now, I am new to the school and am not in a class teacher role. As a result, I do not automatically command the respect that the other teachers do and they seem to see me more as a TA. They have, at times, been openly defiant and very rough in front of me. I am unused to this as discipline has always been a strength in the past! I have a few ideas up my sleeve in terms of establishing boundaries and channelling their energy.

However, I cannot help but feel that squeezing 4 very difficult boys into one small space, is not necessarily the best way to promote good playtime behaviour, as they just deem to spark off each other. Any ideas/ advice from people with school- based experience greatly appreciated.

PS not meaning to imply that TAs are not respected, but ime, children do not always respond to them in the same way as they do class teachers

I think the important thing here is to establish with the boys that they are not being sectioned off as a punishment, but have been chosen to do something 'special' at playtime, as a privilage.

You need to earn their trust and make the sessions fun for them. If they usually run around at playtime it would be unfair to suddenly have them doing something sedentary, so hopefully the space is big enough for them and you to do some active games? Could it be a chance to use equipment the other kids don't get to use on the playground.

I know with the kids I work with, it has to be sold to them as a good thing, a special thing that they are privileged to be taking part in. I run a Lego club for children with challenging behaviour (not at breaktime though) and all the kids in the school want to come to Lego club and are very gealous of the kids that do get to do, which helps the kids who I choose feel they are lucky to be taking part, rather than being punished.

and I don't think any adult ever automatically commands respect form kids, even if they are their class teacher. Respect has to be earnt, it is never automatic, and if you want respect from these boys you should be able to earn it. It won't come automatically, but eventually it will come.

Have you taked to your head about your concerns about these boys being confined to a small space?

I suggest you figure out the social dynamics, one of those boys is the top (alpha) male. Get him in order (engaged & keen) & the others will follow suit.

great advice. thanks to you both.

re being automatically respected, i agree totally overmydeadbody, that respect has to be earned. BUT... at my last school i was a long standing, well respected member of staff so was treated with respect by all children in the school, whether they were in my class or not (a sort of 'respect by reputation', iyswim).

Umm, I think you have been given an extremely difficult job.

Are these children getting any other input into their social skills besides what you have been asked to do with them? What does the SENCo assess to be their primary needs with regards to their behaviour? It will be a very different kettle of fish depending on whether you are dealing with attachment disorder/ low self esteem or lack of empathy/ conduct disorder type problems.

What equipment have you been given access to for them in your 'space'? Is it paved or grass? I would veer away from competitive games. Could you ask that they be allowed to dig in your space and create 'roads' for cars or such like? Or do you have pallet and milk crate type play equipment they could have in there.

You will earn their respect by being FIRM, fair and fun. In that order.

What advice have you been given about what to do if it kicks off? Do the boys have an easy exit so they can take themselves away from a problem or are you playing in a crucible?

BTW I disagree with the 'this is a privilage' tack. I would be going down the lines of 'It hasn't been going well on the main playground. When you can show me how well you can play here in a small group I will start to think about you being able to go on the main playground again'.

We run a judo club for kids like you describe......

We pay a judo person to run it.

I hope you don't mind OP but I saw this and wondered if I could ask for some advice re my DS if anyone is around to comment this morning - my DS is like the boys you describe.

Ever since he's been at school he's been in trouble for overly rough play in the playground - either too many "fighting" games, children being hit by footballs he's kicked, rugby tackling other children etc etc. Every school year I've asked for meetings with his teachers and we've tried to work together to resolve the issue. We've had:

• behaviour books
• missed playtimes
• visits to the HT
• sanctions at home for things that have happened at school
• special treatment in school for good behaviour
• rewards at home for good behaviour in school

Everything works for a week or two and then the old behaviour comes back.

All teachers think it stems from his need for approval from the Alpha boys in his class - they think he's showing off to impress them and, at times, he's done things just because they've told him to.

I had a meeting with his teacher last week and she told me that his behaviour is not great in class either - similar story - showing off to impress others. She did say that in the scheme of things his behaviour is not serious - it's just that in an unusually studious and mature class, he and a couple of the other boys stand out.

I have a meeting with the SENCO tomorrow (at my request) - anyone any tips on what I should be asking her to do?

Year2 mum, if your ds has no underlying emotional/ behaviour problems, then there's every chance he will outgrow this behaviour, ime, as he matures. I taught year 5 for many years and have to say that there were some real little
buggers pickles in the infants of our primary school. however, it was very rare that these boys were still challenging by the time they got to me in year 5. Another thought... what's he like at home?

EBDteacher, your post made me feel relived. it's good to hear that you think that i have a difficult job. i was feeling very inadequate.

will try to reflect on all the advice given, but i am unused to working with such challenging children whilst having just a few 15 minute slots per week. doesn't give any time for trust/ a relationship to build...

Adventures, i think that all the boys have such deep rooted issues individually that there is far more to their behaviour than simply trying to impress the alpha male

Yr2Mum - I think you should ask if he could do some kind of lunchtime club. Any kind of lunchtime club.....

Sorry whatdyouthink I hadn't twigged you are an ex-teacher- didn't mean to teach you suck eggs.

How tricky indeed to just have these boys for a few minutes a day. I suppose, in your favour, you have control over something they presumably will really want i.e. reintegration onto the main playground. That will give them a reason to work hard at playing well for you!

Could you have your own incentive type system with them? Perhaps if they have 4 good play times where they play co-operatively the fifth one could be spent in the computer suite? Of course this depends on their ability to delay gratification and whether, for example, something that might or might not happen on Friday means anything to them on Monday.

I would very much view it, and frame it to them as, teaching them how to play. Have shared success criteria and give them feedback on their performance and pointers for improvement just as you would if you were teaching them anything else.

I would also quickly entrain a 'stop command'. Have an old bench or something in your space and train them (yes, like dogs) to leave all equipment and sit on it with a still body when you say the command word. You might want to have 4 old chairs at different corners if you don't trust them on a bench together however, a chair is more throwable than a bench ! You can then also send any individual for a cool off on the bench or their chair when they start getting overloaded/ het up. If you practice this throughout playtimes- not just at the end- and make carrying on playing contingent on the stop commands being followed they will get conditioned to it and it will make it much easier for you to keep control of their games.

Good luck!!

Thank you Whatdyouthink for your response. I had hoped thought he would grow out of it by now tbh. I think there's an underlying self-esteem issue at play here and a lack of impulse control. I think he's immature emotionally too.

But, I don't want to hijack your thread any more. Just reading the replies to you and the suggestions gives me some ideas for what school could be doing to help.

Good luck withy your mission

Yr2Mum it sounds a bit like your DS is looking for someone to give him approval.

Possibly the school could shift who he seeks it from to an adult rather then the boys. It might be as simple as getting a significant adult to notice each day that he has had a kind, calm playtime and give him some praise for it. Or it might need to be a bit more involved than that.

He probably also needs to be given some very clear, reinforced teaching about what he should do at playtime, rather than being pulled up for what he shouldn't do, including some focussed support for his emotional regulation.

Thank you EBDTeacher. I appreciate your suggestions. I'll talk to the SENCO tomorrow and will make some notes from this thread so I have some ideas up my sleeve. Part of the issue I think is that the playground is huge and I think the school has a problem with adequate supervision. But, that doesn't explain why some children manage not to hurt others and my DS can't seem to .

Liking your approach EBD teacher....you know your stuff!

Thanks Selks, it is my job.

I think you should take them out of class a few times and ask them to help you with something- perhaps creating a new mural for the section of the playground?

I find most kids like to spend time in small groups with adults. If they created something, they're more likely to care about it too.

Also, give them jobs! Maybe you could grow something in small pots? You need to distract them and keep them busy, and giving them a project might be the way to do it.

Good luck!