Private primary ed?

[AbieH]

So I don't want to sound pretentious/snobby/stuck up and I know a lot of people on here will judge me for this post but I'm going to go ahead and write it anyway.
My DD is 3 and will be starting school in September 2013, so I've started thinking about her education and talking to DH and other parents about what primary school will be best for her.
Both DH and I went through the private education system from the age of 5 up. I really feel that private education is worth it (if in an academically good school- NOT for the snobby suggestion that I don't want my DD 'socialising with the wrong kind of children'), right from the beginning of primary school. DH, on the other hand, doesn't think it's worth it until at least age 11. I know how lucky we are to be in a position where this is a dilemma, and to be honest the decision isn't only based on fees- it comes down to the fact that DH had an unhappy childhood and I had a very happy one, so the schools we went to don't really come into it.
AIBU? Or is he? Is it worth the money? Where do your children go? Thank you! xx

Rabbitstew, I think KTk9 meant your first post about the kids' inability to do sport being rammed down the children's throat unfair, which I think it is in itself but you 'qualified' it later to say you didn't mean it with ALL private school kids. Your subsequent posts do make a lot of sense so your contribution is valued by the OP I'm sure! I just don't like the way all these discussions about private/state generally descends into hysterics instead of a calm discussion about pros/cons.

You're right. One doesn't look back and rue what could have been. We make the best decisions for our children at the time and hope for the best. I wish, in a way, we had disregard state schools and just bought a smaller/cheaper house but then, we wouldn't have our current gorgeous house with lovely neighbours that I hope DSs will still be able to socialise and play with!

I get really angry with the people who suggest that in order to have life success (and by that I mean the success society believes in - good job etc) that you have to go to private school, at least by secondary and you'll have to catch up if your parents don't fork out for private primary. My siblings and I never had one day's private education, state from 4-18 and all of us are highly qualified, well paid professionals - we could not have achieved more in terms of outcome.

This is not an experience that is unique to our family - it is repeated year in year out all over the country. What makes the difference in a child's education is the aspirations of the parents - our parents read to us, took us to museums and the theatre, banned unsavoury TV, discussed the world with us, helped us with homework, paid for music lessons, intervened with useless teachers. And we learned about the real world because we went to a mixed comprehensive. You cannot buy that.

So in short, I think rabbitstew hits the nail on the head when talking about whether it's worth it to pay for private education. That really depends on what you want for your children. I want my kids to be happy and healthy and fill their potential but most of all grow up to be nice human beings that other people will want to know. At the moment that means I'm paying for it, it pains me, but it's the right thing for the particular children I have at this stage - SN changes the scenery somewhat, but non-SN children I will be choosing state education every time.

I agree that Rabbitstew has spoken lots of sense on this thread and expressed much of what I think, only better. My children are at the local school that is shunned by all our neighbours who choose to go private. While I never regret my choice as the sum total of our family's happiness is undoubtedly raised by being part of the community and being able to walk to school, I of course wonder whether they'd be getting a 'better' academic education if they were at one of the myriad privates my neighbours choose. However, I've yet to see any concrete evidence of this and I have seen the concrete benefits of my choice. You will stress over whatever choice you make and that's being an involved parent.
I think rabbitstew asks an interesting question as to whether the difference in primary schooling was still evident at y13. It really wasn't (or even which secondary)) when I went to Oxford. I know I was behind in French when I went to a private school at 11 but I'm not sure there were any other differences (and certainly not long term).
I'd also suggest you look at state primaries. My kids' school (50% fsm, high EAL, all the scary MN markers) is fabulous, so much better than my primary. The Labour investment did make a difference.

I'd be tempted by private if we had a lot more money (it would have to be easily affordable, and not a struggle in any way) but were time-poor; I imagine it's a lot easier effectively contracting out the extra-curricular stuff that Becksharp describes.

Having said that, looking at what ds's school has to offer I can't see that many private schools could offer much more, other than Latin maybe

So for me, a private school would have to be pretty amazing (and I'd have to be pretty lazy). I can think of far, far better ways to invest £200k than school fees, ways that would benefit all of us as a family. I struggle to see how a private education can be worth £200k more than a decent state one.

I always thought it would be more important to send children to a private secondary school if thats the route you want to go but the more I read about statistics/qualifications it made me believe that the better the education received at primary level then the more likely your DC will achieve at secondary anyway so I personally would go for as early as possible.

DS2 starts at an independent school in September for year R in September and DS1 is still waiting for a place so starts the year after for year 3.

DS1 will have missed french lessons from 4-7 years, not loads but I still worry how much he will have missed and if it was from 4-11 I would be more concerned. He will be having french lessons with my friend next year to give him some sort of introduction.

This is not a private v state thread, the OP is asking for advice, why do people have to come on and say how they don't agree with private education etc. The OP wants her DC to go to a private school but was just asking when from!!

On the whole, I think people have done that Lou. You believe that they will do better at secondary they have a good education at primary, undoubtedly true, but others are sharing their experience as to what constitutes a 'good education' in either sector. Her DH's opinions are to be taken into account and the best way for her to do this would be to visit the relevant schools to be able to compare actual options instead of theoretical ones and generalisations re sectors.

It really depends on your choice of schools. I don't think a mediocre prep is better than a good state primary just because it is private.

In our case, a couple of the considerations for choosing private at primary were

• we are in a city and a lot of the state schools didn't have much outside space whereas the DS's prep has playing fields, tennis courts and wooded area for them to play in.

• both of mine are summer borns so were only just 4 when they started school. I wanted them to start in Sept rather than miss half of reception but was concerned they might be overwhelmed by the bigger classes.

You have to look at your child and the schooling options available.

You can always move to private during the primary years if you are not happy with the state primary.

lou, the OP asks "Is it worth the money?" and some of us are suggesting that it isn't. I don't see a thread overrun with people saying that private education is immoral.

The answer to "when from" fom me would probably, in most cases, be never.

About French lesson, I had experience with 3 state primary schools .They all teach French from reception.Is this not common actually?

If you really believe private school can make big difference, then go as early as possible make sure you don't miss anything, if money is not a problem.

I wonder how do private schools deal with common problems in state schools, such as:
Very advanced children are not challenged engouth(Y3 child is doing GCSE.
Y2 child is reading Harry Potter, etc. )
Very behind children are not getting enough help to meet the target.
Bully, friendship ,confidence issue .

Curious why would private schools deal with those issues any differently to state schools?

why would private schools deal with those issues any differently to state schools?
If not, does it worth the money?

I have no experiance of private school, I went to my local village school when young and my children go to our local school/playgroup. Couldn't afford private anyway so not a decision I would have to make.

Can I just ask what is it about private schools that make them "better"?

are the teachers better? Do they have more clever children? Do they teach in a different way?

Is there an element of, if you pay you have more invested in your children's education so you expect more and then the school meets those expectations because you pay them.

I find it sad that is a decision that needs to be made because surely every child in the country deserves the BEST education regardless of back ground. Why can't state schools emulate what it is that makes a private school good?

Curious seems to have gone way off topic!!!!

I don't think the OP was asking when to send the child private. She obviously wants to do so now. What she actually wants is validation for her decision, so that she can justify her position to the child's father, who doesn't agree with her.

I didn't mean to make it go off topic sorry. If I knew what it was that was different about them (never even set foot in one) then I could say my opinion.

E.g if it's better teaching and you can afford it. Then yes go for it because I probably would. Everyone wants what it best for their child. (and I would want a child who had a good job so they could afford to put me in a nice home when I am old :) )
Or
If its because they are just better because the riff raff can't afford to go. Then I would say no because you have to deal with all sorts of people in life.

I had a friend when I was young who went to a school that you had to pass an exam to get into. She said it was a far better school because of the exam results, my argument agains that was they only let clever people in so obviously the results would be better.

i personally think whether it's worth it will be very child dependent. i was state educated (non selective mixed comp) from day one to a levels, got the best possible results and went to oxford. my brother and sister (whilst I'd argue they are as bright as me) are not so academically self motivated and whilst they acheived OK grades at a level - bs and cs, did not excel. they are both in professional careers now. for that kind of child the smaller class sizes, increased attention may be worth some money?
i think it's clear that i'd have done well anywhere and it would have been wasteful to spend shit loads of cash on me, not that my parents could have afforded it anyway. i suppose i may have had more extra curricular stuff going on at a private school.
i think some children are natually self disciplined and interested and some aren't so much. parental help can probably help a little, but ultimately the child has to want to succeed in state school, whereas i think the school wants the child to succeed in private schools (success being relative btw, not suggesting that bs and cs at a level is bad - although it might well be for an independent, which is my point. my brother and sister were viewed as fine at a state school but would have been pushed elsewhere).
my ds starts school next year and will be going state all the way. i suppose our opinions are formed by our own experiences and i'm very much of the "it didn't do me any harm". the child themselves does have to take some responsibility at some point though - probably in secondary.

I am having a simiar dilemma as per the OPs.

DD is in Yr 3 and has a place at the local outstanding state school from September Yr4.

It has a large 180 PAN (6 class) year intake.

We are considering move to Private mainly due to size of school/year. But State school is raved about by all, so it must be good!

However, not so sure if moving her to Private now will benefit her, as in three years she will take Grammar Entrance and I can always get a tutor .
If she fails the Grammar entrance, the alternative State Schools are not so good.

So maybe, we'll save the money until its really needed - if it is at all.... and then try scholarships etc from age 11.

Houseworkprocrastinator I think you are very lucky. Are you in London? My DH and I have friends who live in the 'country' and I think they are very lucky when it comes to schools. The primary schools there seem lovely and under-subscribed. Her daughter was being bullied, she moved her to another local primary, no problem, and her son who is suspected of being autistic sounds like he is getting great support from the school. In London, all the primary schools are over-subscribed. Parents are being sent all over the place with their kids, bulge classes are being put in 'poor' performing schools as opposed to where there is demand. There's no space anywhere for primary schools to 'grow' other than at the expense of their already limited playspace. I have contacted my local council endlessly about the issue but they don't really seem to care - their attitude seem to be 'as long as we have offered you a place, we can't see how you can complain'. So between sending my DS1 to a local state primary that seems to be 'failing' but taking more classes nevertheless (and which I have to drive to...) and a private prep school (almost equidistance) where the reception teacher has already met DS1 and knows his name and is very enthusiastic about him going to school (and vice versa!), I don't really see much of a choice when it comes down to it. But I also realise this is a result of us choosing to live in London. Life just isn't that easy, is it?

We moved DD from state to private in yr 2 because she is bright and was getting bored.
Even if that had not been the case, she was struggling in a large class and going "under the radar".
Disruptive children got attention, but quiet DD didn't.
She would then burst into tears on the walk home about what a frustrating day she had had.

We looked at all the alternatives (and found a couple of private schools that we considered dreadful - pushy and poor pastoral care) until we found a school that had an ethos of supporting children in trying things out and celebrating their success and helping them work through failures to get ultimate success.
It was this ethos of supported failure rather than concentration only on success which made our mind up.

The local state school took the view that failure was so damaging to children shouldn't be challenged so they would never fail and harm their self esteem, which meant many children were just bored.

Angel
No not in London, I grew up in a village. But currently live on an estate near a city. It's a "deprived" are but the school is good. I think most people I know just send their children to the local school unless they go to the welsh school.
There are some "characters" at the school but my daughter has tended (so far) to children who work hard and behave. And i just explain to her that others arent as lucky as her as their mummies haven't taught them to behave.

I must admit I don't relate to this whole school placement thing going on in larger areas, and I really don't understand why people would be given places at schools miles away. Whatever happened to catchment areas?

I can understand your frustration tho if your local school is not a good school your kind of at the mercey of the local authority. And from what I have read previously this seems to be a bit of a lottery. Or you pay up. They should concentrate on making state schools better so no parent feels like they HAVE to make that choice.

Sorry - I was referring to a very small minority who feature hugely in the 'private school bashing' threads.

My DS1s school do not really teach french, they have approx 10 very basic lessons from YR to Y2 so he will be fairly behind the others by juniors I would imagine.

With regards to how private schools address the issues such as different abilities - in DS2s school when we looked round they explained to us they all start day 1 of the topic on the same 'page', very quickly they are taught individually (class of 16, 1 teacher, 1 ta). The teacher showed me the reading books in the Y1 class - bottom one was red bookband (relatively low for mid Y1) and the top was a free reader who was reading Harry Potter.

DS1's excellent state school does exactly the same and the readers in Y1 vary by the exact same levels.

DS2's school are non-selective but achieve 100% GCSEs so they must teach the lower ability children well too. Their policy for admission is around behaviour and the willing to work hard.

Sorry i read it as her DH wanted to send the DC from 11. I have re-read and see that's not necessarily the case.

Is it true that private school do everything one or two years ahead of state schools? Some people said at the end of year six state schools only aim for level 4 but private schools aim for level 5.

Houseworkprocrastinator Our local schools' catchment practically 'halved' this year due to baby boom years and also they took in bulge classes 2 years before, which meant siblings took up more than half of intake in some schools alone. The LA will tell you there is no such thing as 'catchments', only last place offered the previous years can give you an idea and no guarantee either as we found out... My dealings with the LA have been very disappointing, they have shown little interest in dealing with the problem (their way of dealing with it is to make the failing schools take even more classes - the schools are failing, the governing body doesn't seem to care much, so gives in to pressure from council to take more classes while the schools that are rated ok/outstanding seem to have interested parents in their governing board who will NOT bow down to pressure from LA to increase the school intake). We have 4 primary schools within a 15 minute walk from us and we didn't get into any of them. Instead they want me to take DS1 to a primary school 2 miles away... I'm exhausted from the whole process. I just want my DCs to go to a good (not even outstanding) local school. I just think it's not a simple state vs private argument in lots of cases. All I want is my DCs to get a good education and at the moment, it looks we have no choice but to pay for it.