Tips for looking round a primary school...

[WizzyBizzy]

We are visiting our local primary soon and I'd like some advice on good questions to ask / things to look out for. It is an inner city school, rated 'Good' by Ofsted. There are some 'Outstanding' schools nearby, that have postage-stamp sized catchment areas (and we are outside of these) and people I've met in kids groups etc seem to turn their noses up at this particular school. From what we've seen of it so far we think it seems fine, but I want to be sure we're looking for the right things, as we really don't have a clue about how to tell whether a school is really any good / will suit out children.

TIA

I'm sure people will come up with far better and more practical ideas but I would say, make sure you are shown around by the Head, and go with whatever vibes you get from him/her. If the head cannot show you around forget it.

Pick something to ask like "How do you go about teaching reading?" or "How do you differentiate work for different abilities?" and watch how they react to that sort of question.

A good teacher/head will be happy that you are showing an interest, and will enthusiatically explain their system. A bad one will treat you like you're a pain in the bum and ought to keep out of their domain.

Their actual answer doesn't matter that much - but their attitude to that kind of question can speak volumes

Look at the kids (in corridors if possible) do they seem happy and full of purpose or bored and wandering.

Look at displays, are the interesting, bright and informative or old tatty and ripped.

See if the head/ staff have an attitude of warmth, competence, compassion with an edge of steel. Is the head convincing as a leader.

Are your dc sporty? Arty? Like music? Do you need before/after school care? What extra-curricular clubs /opportunities do they offer?
What is their discipline system? How do they support lower achievers? How do they stretch higher achievers?
What is the teacher turnover rate? Is the Head about to retire?
How much access to outside do reception children have? How are they looked after during main playtimes?
I'm sure there's many more questions, but these are a few I wished I'd asked - then chosen a different school!!
Also of course, see how engaged the kids are in the classrooms.
If you are shown round by children, make sure you ask for an appointment with the Head afterwards.
hth.

Do the teachers talk to you or directly to your child? are the walls covered in beautiful displays showing only the 'best work' or are a variety of children's achievements celebrated? are the displays obviously the work of TA's who should be spending their time with the children instead of decorating? how are you met at reception? do the children look actively engaged or sitting down passively listening to info? are they, the teachers and all the staff smiling in a way that reaches their eyes? is their genuine joy?? is the head approchable?

Can I be really nosy Wizzy and ask what your options are if it turns out to be a bit shite (to put it delicately!)?

Our village primary didn't get a glowing Ofsted rating, but when I read the report it made Outstanding for all the feeling safe and providing a good learning environment type criteria, only falling down in actual academic attainment. We have our parent's induction evening at the end of the month so I will get a better feel for things then, but our gut reaction is that so long as DS will be safe, happy and given an opportunity to form good relationships with his peers we can home tutor him with the reading, 'riting and 'rithmetic at home.

OP - I agree with the other posters here but would also ask about school trips i.e. day trips but also residential trips (my DD's school did one in year 5 and 6). Does the school offer any opportunities to learn an instrument? Opportunities for swimming or other offsite sports? What is the destination school of year 6 leavers (any to selectives or private if you may consider that in future?). Is there an active PTA? The schools with more engaged (and pushy!) parents often get better results. Don't worry too much about the Ofsted rating (as long as it doesn't go down) there is tremendous snobbery about that and it is not always a good indicator. I have noticed people in my local area fighting to get their offspring into "Outstanding" schools that they wouldn't have touched with a bargepole the year before when it was only "Good".

I'd ask things like .... How many children get the chance to be in the football team / orchestra / choir / chess club / etc., rather than 'do you have one?', as it reflects the ethos of the school quite a lot I think.
As well as practical things like is there out of school care.

Thanks for all the responses so far - there are some great points here that I'd not thought of.

neverquitesure - to be perfectly honest, we don't really have many any other options if we turn out to hate this. We're in central London and won't in a million years get into the two outstanding schools which are 3rd and 4th nearest to our house. The second nearest is a faith school, which we'd be at the very bottom of the list for (not religious and not planning to become so) and on the basis of the last 2 years of admissions also wouldn't have got into, but that would be down to siblings etc. Can't afford to go private and don't want to move house. I guess if we felt we really had to then we would consider moving but who knows where to? To your point, if we don't like it then I guess we need to just panic a bit and figure out the extent to which we can teach the key things from home (we're both from very academic backgrounds and I'm changing my working hours to make sure that I have time to be with children from the end of the school day).

What I'm really hoping is that by looking around and asking all the right questions I will be reassured that the school does what we need it to. Rather than have a quick look around and spending the next year until DC1 starts school in a state of angst about the whole thing.

I already know that the facilities for things like music, sport etc aren't great, which bothers me, but tbh we expect to support our kids doing this sort of thing outside of school.

Out of interest, does anyone else pay any attention to a schools website? Theirs is not good and very very out of date. Should this be a concern, or just a sign that priorities are elsewhere?

Oohhhh - destination of leavers = good point. Also, do many leave before yr 6?

It might be a sign that priorities are elsewhere easily. It's fairly time consuming to design a website, write interesting copy, proof-read, keep it updated (including the technical bit), make sure the design of the site is up to date, etc. It's unlikely there will be one person who is proficient at all of these skills so it requires a fair amount of co-ordination and TBH the teachers and receptionists have other things to be doing. It probably depends how much the parents use it, too. DS's school have a text service so I never think to check the website unless I'm looking up a phone number or the term dates or something.

I really hope you are pleasantly surprised Wizzy. I'm sure you will be. I don't have any useful questions to suggest but I think if you can satisfy yourself that your DC will be safe, happy and reasonably stimulated there you can fill in the blanks yourself. Like you, we cannot afford to go private but can stretch to music lessons, swimming lessons and catch up tuition (assuming we couldn't do it ourself) should we need to. The advantage he/she will have over attending a school further away is any little friends will be closer by for playdates and more likely to follow him/her to the same high school.

Which Borough are you in Wizzy?

There were some schools that were failing when my DD was 4 or 5 which are Outstanding now. They can change very quickly.

RE School's websites, in my DD's school, IT literate parents designed it so not necessarily a good indicator; I don't think the teachers have time unless they love IT stuff.

Also a lot of kids at my DD's school left in year 4 to go to private schools. It didn't stop it being an outstanding school, but more a reflection of the area we live in where a lot of rich people live and are paranoid their darlings won't get into the independent secondaries. Lucky actually because my DD started in year 4 (coming the other way from a crap private school) and we wouldn't have had a place otherwise.

My kids' school's website was made by the pupils. Sweet, but it does mean that it's absolutely terrible. Honestly gives me a headache just looking at it.
I'll sound like an irresponsible parent but I'm not sure all this constant viewing of schools does us any good. I'm a firm believer that unless there are compelling reasons not to go to your nearest school, then that's where they should go. I liked our local school which had been awful (now the opposite) and my gut feeling was that I liked it. As a consequence I didn't go and see the other two schools that people round us tend to go for. I knew that there would be things they did better, things they did worse, but nothing would compensate for being on our doorstep so why muddy the issue.
What did help us, though, was visiting a couple of truly diabolical (central London) privates. Honestly, our state school seemed like Eton in comparison.

Sorry that should have read 'I looked round our local school'

Look around the school and think about everything as if you are a child. How does it look and feel for a child on a day to day basis? Do the teachers seem to like children? Are the children smiling? Do you hear happiness?
I would not worry too much about being shown round by the head themselves as I really rate a strong leadership team.

You need to ask something about the aspirations for the children and what schools they leave to go to at year six ie grammar etc. I decided not to send my kids to the local outstanding primary as the head told me that the local secondary school was good enough for all the kids despite the face we live in a grammar scho area. She said that not one child do the exams and why would they.
Mine went to the other primary that on paper wasn't so good but at least had aspirations for the kids.

After school activities is also useful as once they are older they may want to play sport or sing in the choir.

Does the head actually know some of the names of the pupils??
A good idea would also to be there for drop off/pick-up and see how the interactions ...
How do they treat bullying incidents ....

My dc's former school's website bore no relation to what went on in the school, it was like reading about a different place.

OP I am I central London. my DS1 recently moved to an outstanding school which had no waiting list in year 1. My twin Ds2 and 3 have got places as siblings to start Sept.

This school is by no means my nearest.

Central London schools often have a high turnover rate for pupils, partly because of immigration and families moving in and out of the country, and partly because a lot of people move further out at primary school age. This means that if you don't get in on the initial admissions round, and you really like a school, you can get in once everything has 'calmed down'! But it might take a while. My DS1s school had several places come up in the first term of reception this year.

Have a look at the school. One thing I have learnt is that it is important that the school works for your family and your child. So have a proper look around. Look round the other schools too. This will help you ask the relevant questions (I see school B has a gardening club, do you have plans for that? and so on)

I really don't like being taken around by pupils, but if you get to speak to a head or deputy thats not necessarily a deal breaker.

Go to the school fair! This is a great way to see how the school community is 'at rest' as well as a formal visit.

Unfortunately for us the nearest school ('good') was not good. At the time it seemed below par, but now it seems primitive in comparison to DS1s new school.

Oh and up to date website, and up to date notices and boards in the school are what you want. My DS1's school has thought properly about the internet and child safety, they have a proper policy, they use it in school, and they have a school blog that the teachers update the same day as a class assembly or event. All parents are asked to agree specifically to each of these aspects (photos, using Internet, emails etc). The class display boards only have what the pupils are currently doing. There is no extra visual noise.

Contrast this to his first school where he did not start school in a 'blank slate' classroom - there was work up from the previous year, and so much work on the windows you could not see out!

Why do you all think that being shown around by the head in person is so important? tbh, I would have thought the HT should have better things to do.

I love being shown round by pupils - they haven't learned about tact / diplomacy / giving the "right" answer, and you get the truth. I have enormous amount of respect for a HT who believes his/her pupils' honest picture of the school is something that will attract new families. Says a huge amount IMO.

Pupils is ok - I agree on your points, but I have been shown around schools where there has been no interaction at all with a teacher, let alone a head or deputy. On one occasion I had to hang around the reception for ten minutes whilst receptnist avoided eye contact in order to ask some adult questions about the school. There are a lot of things about a school: policies, ethos, future plans and so on, that a pupil would not know....

I'm agreeing with the post above, the system is a bit flawed. Everyone looks round all the primary schools to choose the best.

In reality few have any choice, your lucky to get into the nearest school never mind the outstanding school. Our local outstanding school has just lost almost all of the teaching \managment staff this year. ( massive panic now)

I'm thinking of only visiting the school we will get, i'm not sure i want to see better iyswim. It's a good school and i think i will be able to bridge any gap at home.