When does teasing become bullying?

[Peppin]

DS is in year 5 in our small village primary school, where he has been since Reception.

There are only 5 boys in Year 5 (including DS). DS and one other both moved to the area just before starting school in year R. 2 of the others had been friends from nursery. The 5th one has joined the school subsequently.

From year R onwards, the 2 boys who'd been friends since nursery have been "top dogs" in this year group. At one time DS became quite friendly with one of them and the other one hated it and would get the older boys to gang up with him to force "his" friend away from DS. DS would be excluded from games, invitations to play, and parties, both in and out of school. Twice I have learned that 2 of these boys have had parties to which they have invited every boy in both their year group and the year above, but not DS.

I spoke to the school about this a couple of years ago and it improved for a bit and then got worse as the boys realised DS' mum had intervened and picked on him even more.

In general DS has been quite sanguine about how these boys behave towards him - he doesn't like it but I think he can see that it's not really about him. However recently he has been quite withdrawn and moody and at the weekend he told me that these boys are completely excluding him at school and he has no one to play with at break and if any boy individually starts to play with DS then the "gang" intervenes to remove the one who's chosen to play with DS.

There is a lot of name calling. "You're fat", "You smell" (he's not and he doesn't). "You're a nerd" (he isn't; he's just interested in school and they aren't).

I don't know how to deal with this. I was absolutely miserable at junior school myself over a 4 year period at the hands of a merciless bully and it was all verbal, in much the same way as this. I never felt I really had much to complain about, without looking a bit wet. Years later, I saw her somewhere unexpectedly and had a full-blown panic attack. I never breathed a word at the time but it affected me badly. I can't bear to think of my gorgeous, intelligent, sparky boy feeling as miserable as I did.

DS is absolutely adamant that I must not speak to any teacher about this ("it'll get worse as they will call me a tattle-tail"). He thinks it will get better after this term as when the year 6 boys leave, there will be fewer boys to decide who can do what and he might regain the friendship of boys in his year group. I don't think this will happen. The 2 dominant boys in his year group are, and always have been, sly, wily, unpleasant little gits and I expect they'll continue to pick on DS. They are "cool" and he is not, and the other kids just go along with whatever they say. I hate them.

Any tips? How can I help DS?

That definitely sounds like bullying to me, and I would be tempted to move him. With so few peers their is little the school can do to find him a niche- although they should of course be combating the bullying. Are there any other schools yyou could look at?

I believe that any behaviour which is aimed at a person with the deliberate intention of making them feel unhappy is bullying.
It is such a small group that there isn't really anywhere else for him to look for friends at school. There is a limited amount the school can do, they can punish any physical bullying and name calling but they cannot force children to play together.
As talking nonsense says it may be best to move him and hopefully he can have a settled and happy year 6 before the move to secondary school.
Good luck

Will he be going to the same senior school as these two boys in his year? If he is, he'll take all the issues with him. I certainly did.

I don't think moving him just for Year 6 is an option. His sister goes to the same school, he likes his class teacher, and he himself doesn't want to change school. He just wants to be part of the gang. It's heartbreaking because as takeonboard says, you can't force kids to play with other kids.

This is an example of what happens fairly often:

On a Saturday, DS was on his way home from his grandparents' house (they live in the next road) and crossed a field near us where a few year 5 and 6 boys were playing. One of them said "why don't you come and play football with us?" so he said he would just go and tell me where he would be, and come back. He came home and asked if he could play our for a bit, I said yes, and when he went back 2 or 3 mins later, they had all gone. Another child who was in the field told him they'd all said "let's run away and not play with him" as soon as he was out of earshot. He came home in tears.

I spoke to the mother of one of these kids about it, she called her son downstairs to explain, and he trotted out some cock and bull story about how he'd fallen over straight after DS had been there and had decided to go home as his trousers were grass-stained (as if!). I said to him that this other child had said they'd all been heard agreeing to run off, and he just denied it. The mother shrugged and said "Kids hey!" and I didn't feel I could say much more about it.

They will all go to the same secondary if we stay where we are, though I have been considering moving area for other reasons. Obviously the prospect of sending the DCs to a school with some less unpleasant children in it is also on the "advantages of moving" list. Weirdly though, DS is very anti-moving and seems desperately keen to go to the same secondary school as all his peers. Is this to do with a child's fear of the unknown?

I feel that moving would be good for us for this and other reasons, but I am afraid of making a major change and finding that DS might end up feeling even more isolated (starting all over again in a new place).

Why do the school let the other kids act this way? Sounds awful for your poor DS. Does he have a friend at all, or is he being marginalised completely? I'd say you have to talk to the teachers. I know he doesn't want you to, but isn't there a discrete way you can have a word? They shouldn't be letting this happen. I know it's hard to completely stop but there's lots they should be doing, including giving your son some support.

I really think you need to have a discrete word with the school, they should be doing more to stop your DS being marginalised like this. Are there any year 4 boys he could befriend, or girls? Does he do any out of school activities where he can make friends?

I was in exactly this position with dd last year - she was also in y5 at the time. In the end school did not accept it was bullying as they thought it was girls falling out. Either way it wasn't. They tried and knowingly left dd at every opportunity. They'd let her join in one minute and exclude her the next. They'd call the things she was scared of and kept referring to these things in a daily basis. Dd ended up taking spare underwear in each day as she'd be that upset about being there. It was awful and got worse in a very short space of time from me initially going in.

Subsequently, dd left that school but my ds who was y3 at the time was so settled that we had to leave him.

I don't mean to be rude but some schools just aren't interested and don't want it on record - even though it was happening to other people at the time etc. I knew I would never win. Especially as one of the children bullying dd was a favourite of the school - parents always helped at events, children were in the school activities and newsletter regularly etc etc

You know how it will affect your son and your obviously distraught at the thought of these awful children bullying and getting away with it. Go with your instincts and they will serve you well.

Good luck x

Peppin - what went from overt bullying tactics at junior school turned into mind games for me at senior school. By the third year of it (still can't get my head round the 'new' year names) I had basically given up trying to have any friends in the year. It was much easier doing my own thing, being completely marginalised, never expecting to be part of the 'in' crowd or even on the margins. Even lessons were problematical as whenever we had to move classrooms for a lesson I never had a desk partner and was always the 'odd one out'. Despite being pretty good at PE I was always the last but one to be picked for team games. A change to senior school might help - but it might go the same way mine did. However, a new school could, similarly, bring its own problems.

Sorry, forgot to add my dd was desperate for these 'girls' to like her that she let them treat her appallingly. She kept saying 'I just want them to like me' I can't tell you how relieved she felt when moving to her new school, where everyone was nice, and she just got to play without worrying what the day will hold.

Teasing IMO is just as unacceptable as bullying...but what you describe is systematic bullying.

Poor ds.

Peppin, I really think going into Secondary with these boys would be a mistake. Starting a new school now, or when he is ready to move up would give him the chance to start again and to avoid these 'top dogs'. In this case I really would go against your DS's wishes - he may thank you in time.

(and I agree, this isn't teasing, it's out and out buyllying)

Poor lad . Give him a hug from us.

I've posted on this sort of thing before as my DS1 had almost identical experiences.
There was no choice about senior school, he had to go to the same one as them. But things did improve then and he made new friends. The bullies still tried the same but at least he wasn't alone any more. Its heartbreaking at the time but there is nothing you can do..... children like this behave like this cos they get away with it... the response from school and other mother was shit, but you can't stop them...... and they will use you sticking up for him against him, he's right about that.
But.....
the emotional scars my son has have made him who he is today, thoughtful caring, a lovely brother, a decent guy with good mates and a career where he is well liked and respected and a uni place awaiting him to do his degree in nursing. And the bully?.....drugs problems, poor exam results, poor social relationships and a probation order his greatest achievement to date.
Just do lots of good family times and tell him how fantastic he is, it will pass and he will grow up to be a good man.
PS I was bullied too and I think that makes it even more unpsetting so big ((((hugs))))) too.

I presume that you don't know any of the other parents. Make friends with some of the other parents and gradually you'll solve various issues together.

I say bullying starts at the point where the victim minds. So if your ds is minding it's bullying.
Teasing is where it's not directed continuously at one person and is done with fun, including who it's aimed at.

That probably sounds ideal.

Can you go back to the other mother and say, okay maybe your ds fell over, but how come all the others went? This isn't the first time they've run off from him and they seem to be leaving him out a lot. Ask if she can talk to the other mothers as it's not just her ds. Say you've going to talk to school and (hopefully) the school are taking it very seriously.

And talk to school.

peppin - I think your DS would get on very well with my youngest. He's an old-fashioned odd little boy (in the nicest sense of the world) but thankfully he has one friend who is similar and they are teased/bullied together. Most of the time he takes it in his stride as does his friend. I have spoken to his teacher though and she has always intervened. Teasing remains at a low-level (PE bag and lunch box is 'babyish' etc) and so far DS has been OK about school.

i think you need to speak to his teacher. he can't spend all his time waiting for the bullies to clear off to secondary school

I have had a similar thing happen with my DS, in the past, but I did have a quiet word with the class teacher and she and the other teachers keep a "weather eye" on the situation, and intervened whenever it became apparent to them. It was classed as teasing, but in my eyes it was verbal bullying. We talked things through with my son, and he didn't want to move, and he continued to attend the school, and is now coming to the end of Y6. It has got him down at times, but we keep reassuring him that when he starts High School, he will be in a much bigger group of children, and will find some friends he wants to be with, not boys he has to be with due to them being classmates. I do sometimes wish we had moved him when this first raised its head in Y4, but DS was adament he did not want to move, and TBH, any move would have put him in a a different awkward situation of still being in a small school, but as an outsider new boy, which could have made things worse

I wouldn't worry about the move to secondary if there are only 4 other boys. Just ask that he's not put in the same class as any of them, or maybe just not the 2 alpha males. There will be lots of opportunities to make new friends at secondary. How big is the secondary? Big enough to 'lose' the other 4?

I do know all of the other parents. It's a small village and we've been here 6 years. The fact that one of these boys had a birthday party to which he invited every other boy (in a mixed year 5/6 class) apart from
DS is particularly unbelievable to me. If either of my DCs said they wanted to invite every child of either gender EXCEPT ONE, I wouldn't allow it. Just too unkind, and unnecessary.

I have spoken to a couple of the other mothers (of the 2 dominant boys in DS' year) and they're not interested. Their children can do no wrong. I posted recently about a little girl who announced at the last minute to my DD that she wasn't coming to DD's party after all (having accepted), as she'd had another invitation and was going to that party instead; that child is the sister of one of the bullies troubling DS. Clearly something is awry in that family.

I think I will call the school and speak to DS' class teacher on an informal basis and ask her to keep an eye on things. Hopefully that way it won't get back to either these horrible boys or DS that I have said anything.

I think if you are considering a move this might be the time to do it. Was very happy at school and didn't want to move with my family but was equally happy in my new school and, in hindsight, probably had more opportunities.

Could you have a look at schools and see if you could find something to suit both children before you move.

These boys will always be unpleasant little gits if their parents don't do anything to help them.

If you move to a new area look for out of school activities for your ds so he can find "like minded friends". My ds's play violin and now play in 3 different orchestras and have so many friends through their music.

Best of luck!