primary school appeal advice please

[lyndseyruby]

Hi I am looking for some advice regarding my daughters primary school appeal, if anyone can help I would be very grateful. My little girl will be 4 this July, I applied for a primary school in Oct last year, to start this Sep. I only listed one school on the preference form which I now realise was not a good idea. We were refused a place at the preferred school, the letter states it would have been due to over-subscription. We were allocated a place at our nearest school which unfortunately is the worst in the area and has been classed unsatisfactory and there is a possibility of closure due to amount of surplus places every year, I emailed the LA informing them that my little girl will not be attending the allocated school and said they would receive my appeal in due course. I received an email back asking what other schools would I like to be considered for if places become available. I replied informing them of one other school I would be happy with. I have since spoken to the LA to try and establish the exact reason for refusal and was informed it was infant class sizes and distance, as I did not live in zone for the preferred school. I am quite confused about this, should these other details have been included in my refusal letter from the LA, and is over-subscription basically the same thing as infant class sizes? I was told 46 places have been allocated to our preferred school but it does have 2 classes for the foundation year, does this mean there should still be 14 places free? Also, should I have had any further letters from the LA to acknowledge my appeal or for any other reason, or is it down to me to send my appeal letter in first and state what my grounds for appeal are. If this is the case. What are my grounds for appeal? The school has been oversubscribed every year for at least 6 years and is classed as outstanding by Ofsted. I apologise for the lengthy post, any advice will be very much appreciated.
Thank you lyndsey

I can't help you at all with advice on any of the admissions stuff there are parents here who will help you out more. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the unsatisfactory, local school though. Is there any way you can find out what they might be doing for it? Closure in an area where there's more applications than places isn't a LA's first choice. Under this government it might be pushed into becoming an academy (and of the three primaries that I know of that have become an academy, one is doing brilliaintly, one is middling, and the third is appalling). It could depend on which academy is likely to take it over.

Another alternative is that it might be taken over by a more successful primary school. My son started at nursery the first year that the school, which was in special measures, was taken over by the neighbouring Outstanding primary and it was incredible the difference it made. It went to outstanding in its next ofsted. One of the mums in my son's class was REALLY happy as her older child aged 8 was in a class with just 18 pupils (because parents had pulled the previous year).

At this stage, if you want your child to be in school in Sept, you need to get a list from the LA of the schools where there are places and choose one of those. If you don't need your child to be in school in Sept (and given her age she doesn't actually have to start til Sept 13) then put yourself of the waiting lists of the 2 schools that you want and be prepared to home ed or send to a private school.

There is heaps of advice on appeals, but you need to get a copy of the admission criteria for the schools you want, and find out the category that your child falls into and see how many are on the waiting list. There is dramatic movement on waiting lists, because there's lots of double counting (in our LA for example, you can be on the waiting list for 3 schools). What you need to be prepared for is that even if you stay on the waiting lists, other movement may mean you get bumped down because other children coming to the lists fall into priority categories.

It does not necessarily mean there are any places at all.

46 may seem a strange number, but if the classes are arranged as one YR class of 30 and one mixed YR/Y1 class for 15, with the odd one pupil either reflecting the Y1 being one pupil under maximum, or being an excepted pupil, then it can represent full capacity. Do you know how classes are arranged?

If it is an ICS appeal, then you have to demonstrate that there was an error by LEA in allocating places. So you need to check you were placed in the correct admissions category, and that distances were measured properly.

It is also possible to appeal on the grounds that the decision was so unreasonable as to be perverse, but this is difficult to win, and not liking the other school will definitely be insufficient.

It is usually not a good idea to decline the offered place. They are not obliged to offer you another at all, and it won't make any difference to an appeal or how you fare on waiting lists for other schools.

Yes, the letter from the LA should have stated why you were refused admission. Simply stating oversubscription is not enough. However, you won't win an appeal on that basis.

Oversubscription and infant class sizes are not the same thing. Oversubscription means they have admitted up to the published admission number (PAN) and some people didn't get places. Infant class sizes means that admitting any more children will leave the school with classes of more than 30 children with a single teacher in Reception, Y1 or Y2.

The fact that 46 places have been offered does not mean there are 14 places free. If there were any places free they would have been offered to the people at the top of the waiting list. My guess would be that PAN is 45 and that they have 3 classes covering Y1 and Y2. That would mean any appeal would be infant class size in that, although they would not be over the limit in Reception, they would be in Y1/2. Unfortunately that means you are only likely to win if you can show that a mistake has been made. For example, did they place your daughter in the correct admission category? Does the home to school distance they have used look right?

If PAN is 45 (you can check this in the LA's primary school admissions booklet) they have admitted one over PAN. It would be worth finding out the reason for that just in case it reveals something that would help you. However, the likelihood is that the extra child was admitted due to a mistake, in which case it will make no difference to your appeal.

Stating in a telephone conversation that you intend to appeal may not start the process. You need to submit your appeal form.

It is a shame you have rejected the offered school and only named one other school that you would be happy with. That may look to the appeal panel like you are one of those parents who think they can bully their way into their preferred school by rejecting all other offers. That could damage your appeal as the panel may be less likely to give you the benefit of any doubt. Any new offer from the LA is likely to be at an unpopular school even further away from your home than the school that was already offered.

By the way, the LA has already discharged its legal responsibilities towards you by making an offer. They are not obliged to come up with another. Many do not. The fact your LA will find another place for you is good but they won't go on doing so indefinitely. If you go on rejecting schools there will come a point where the LA will have to say it can't help you any further.

On the information you have posted I don't actually see a case for appeal. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try. You can talk about any features the preferred school has that are missing from the allocated school and how they will be of particular benefit to your daughter. It may be that evidence of a mistake will emerge during the hearing. It does happen sometimes. But I'm afraid you need to be realistic about your chances of success at appeal and start thinking seriously about plan B.

Thankyou to everyone who has replied.

prh47bridge
Thankyou for your advice. During the telephone call with the LA, i was informed that infant class sizes and oversubscription amount to the same thing. With regard to the admission numbers, the school prospectus states their admission number each year is 42 but the LA said this was wrong and it is 46 on their system. The school has 2 foundation classes and there are 3 classes covering year 1 and 2. I asked the LA how they measured the distance between my home and the school and they said it was by foot route, yet their primary school booklet states it is my road, should i mention this in my letter? How would i find out if my daughter was in the correct admission category? When I informed the LA of my intention to appeal it was via email. Also, i would hate for anyone to think i was trying to bully my way into my preferrerred school. It may seem a lame excuse but i honestly thought that only putting one school on the form would be ok, this is the first time i have done this so with hindsight, i know i should have put more than one school on my form. There is something else that i am not sure if i should mention to the appeal panel. The LA who is dealing with the admissions is the same LA and department that i had a court case with for almost 3 years whilst i was trying to adopt my neice. They acted in a way where even the judge referred to them as being unprofessional and did things completely wrong. I also filed a complaint againsr the people involved and complained to the LGO too. The department is the children and young peoples department. Would it be in my best interests to mention this to the panel on the day or should i put it in my appeal letter or not mention it at all do you think. Thank you again for any advice you are able to offer lyndseyruby

I can't really offer any special advice, but I too am in a position where I missed all choices and allocated a school with places that is rated as unsatisfactory and has other issues.

I have put my child on waiting list on several other good schools in the area (we live in a city and have at least 10 schools within a miles (several good, several unsatisfactory and several faith, which we are not). Been advised by LEA to not decline offer (although not sent confirmation yet) and at least view the school (even though made my mind up not to send) as a question at appeal may be 'have you viiewed school allocated' and I need to answer yes to show I am making an informed decision.

I have no medical or social grounds on which to base my appeal but am trying to still build a case, at the end of the day it's worth a shot.

Hope you get the advice and answers you need....prh and posters named admissions and SchoolsNightmare have been very helpful to me.

Winksclub76
Hi, thank you for your reply, my husband went to view both schools last week. The preferred school was veery helpful and the allocated one worried him because he wasnt stopped by anyone when he went in, he basically had access to wherever he wanted to go (obviuosly he only walked around until he found someone to speak to), but that was a major concern for my daughters safety if she went there. Maybe im just nit picking at things that arnt really there, just to convince myself ive done the right thing, as you prob know yourself, its a stressful situation especially when you feel so helpless with your childs future being in the hands of someone else. I know im not unique feeling like this but it doesnt change thew feeling of desperation with it all. Good luck with your appeal, not every appeal is unsuccessful so theres a bit of hope for us yet no matter how small.

SchoolsNightmare
Thankyou for replying. To be honest, im not entirely sure of whether it is an infants class size appeal, for some reason im struggling to get my head around that part of it all. Is it possible to prepare a letter of appeal for this but also include why I feel my childs needs outweigh the needs of the school or is it not possible for the panel to consider both.

Whoever you spoke to in admissions doesn't know the rules. Oversubscription and infant class size are not the same thing at all. Depending on the admission number and class arrangement, if the school is oversubscribed any appeal will be under infant class size rules. But they are very definitely different.

The LA has already admitted one mistake. If the admission number is 46 that is what should have been in the published information, not 42. Either way, this is not an infant class size case. With the class arrangement you give an admission number of 45 would be an ICS case. Admitting 46 will mean 92 children to be split across 3 Y1/2 classes, which means an additional teacher will be needed. That can't be right as the funding for 2 children wouldn't get anywhere near paying for an additional teacher, so there is something wrong with the information the LA has given you. To be honest, I suspect their systems are wrong and the admission number should be 42 or 45, but that won't directly help you as using the correct number would not have resulted in your daughter being admitted.

They must measure distances using the method stated in their primary school booklet. If they don't that is a problem. However, the question for an appeal panel would be whether your daughter would have been admitted if they had measured distances correctly. So it is worth questioning but it may not win your appeal. I would ask them for details of the route used for measuring the distance from your house to the school and see if it looks sensible.

As the letter you received didn't tell you which category your daughter was placed in you should ask the LA. They are required to answer any reasonable question you ask in order to help you prepare for your appeal.

Even though you have emailed them about your appeal I would still send in the form.

The panel won't be worried by the fact you only named one school. That is an honest mistake which some parents make. They are more likely to be concerned by the fact you have rejected the offered school. Make it clear to the panel that you don't regard this as the only acceptable school for your daughter but it is your preferred school. If you are offered another school before the appeal I would strongly recommend accepting the offer however much you dislike the school concerned. You can always reject it later and it gives you a plan B in case your appeal fails.

Why do you think the court case is relevant? If there is evidence they have discriminated against you because of what happened previously it would be significant. In the absence of that I don't think it makes any difference. The fact they were unprofessional and doing things incorrectly 3 years ago is not evidence that they are still getting it wrong today.

Thank you once again. I have started writing my appeal letter and have pointed out that I have nothing againsr the allocated school, the main reason I have rejected it is because most of the children start out at well below national average. To be honest, I think its a brilliant school given that once the children reach the end of year 2 they are doing really well and reach the same grades as the national average. The reason why I do not want my daughter attending there is because she is really advanced for her age. I know most parents will think the same about their children but I asked the nursery she attends if I was just being biased, they have confirmed what I think and have put it in writing for me. The school I applied for has children who are advanced for their age from start of school life. I believe that this will be more beneficial for my daughter for all the obviuos reasons of being challenged enough in her education etc etc. With regard to the admission numbers, I think there were 46 children admitted to be split across the 2 foundation classes, Is that any different to what you have already said in your last post, please forgive me with this, as I said before, Ii seem to have a mental block when trying to work out whether I am appealing on the infant class size grounds or not.

LEAs do not take any account of ability when they are allocating places to primary schools.

Wow, i am so glad i posted here today. The main bulk of my letter explains everything that my daughter can do ie communication, numeracy etc, I will definately have to go back and delete a good proportion of the letter, I have mentioned how shy she is and does not like being in a large group of people but I guess thats something she will have to get used to no matter what school she attends. The main reason I mentioned her abilities in my letter was because the preferred school excels in these areas so I feel she would fit in really well there . Back to the drawing board I think. Thank you for replying it is very much appreciated.

Lyndseyruby,
I think that PRH is probably right in their assumptions. However it is best to start from scratch. The Published admission number is the key number and the LA has to admit to the figure. This figure is agreed in advance and is in the LA admission book. If you PM me with the school name and LA I will check out exactly what the PAN is, but it is likely to be 45.
Unless you have any evidence that the LA are deliberately biased against you, then mentioning past history will simply tend to alienate the panel, who will not take kindly to suggestions that the LA are deliberately doing something wrong. If they are then they do need to hung drawn and quartered but otherwise concentrate on what the school can other at appeal.

I have PMd Lyndseyruby about the school but for everybody the official PAN for the school is 44, just to prove me wrong!
So the LA and appeal panel is going to have a very interesting decision to make, is it an infant class size regs case or not. At a PAN of 44 the answer must be no, but if there are 46, it becomes a question of how did the extra 2 get places.

Don't all schools have provision for gifted and talented pupils? Maybe worth asking.

lyndsey - you mention adopting your niece - is this the DD to whom you refer?

If so then some schools have a criteria for children in the care of the LA - and I believe that some LAs class children who have been adopted within this criteria.

Just thought it worht a mention as it would put you right at the top of the criteria / waiting list if this were the case.

Thank you to everyone to added further advice. I apologise for not getting back to you sooner. I am not sure about the provisions for children thought to be gifted and talented. Im presuming without anything to confirm this is the case, it will be seen as a biased parent convinced their child has advanced abilities for their age? Which if I am honest was what I thought about myself, so I asked the nursey what their honest opinion was, they agreed with what I thought, which is a relief.
With regards to trying to adopt my niece, with deep regret, we had to back out literally weeks before the final hearing, as she was diagnosed with autism and we were told she would not be able to deal with any move of placement so she stayed where she was with the foster parents, who have since adopted her.

Hi
I have telephoned the preferref school and have been informed that it was the admission authority who increased the admission number to 46. There has been 46 allocations to date, there were 160 applications to which we were 154th according to the LA. The school could not say why the LA had increased the admission number. The school spread the class numbers as, 2 foundation classes, one has 24 and the other has 26 pupils, there are 3 classes over year 1 and 2 all having 30 in each class, there are also some year 1 pupils in the foundation classes because its the only way they can keep within the class size rules. Do you think this would be classed as infant class size appeal and if so, is there any point in appealing on these grounds taking all the numbers into account? I have also spoken to the LA about how far the last person who was allocated a place lived, they said it was 0.9 miles, We were 2.84 miles. I am really struggling as to what I should be saying in my appeal letter, which I have to send in by Monday, I originally began the letter pointing out my daughters' abilities and this is why I felt the preferref school would suit her educational needs best, as they are used to children starting school who are above average, thus being able to challenge them appropriately and without them feeling different to other pupils and without their abilities going to waste. I was informed by SchoolsNightmare not to be so direct with how I describe my daughter, I am now questioning how far to go with this in my letter. Any advice on all the above will be very much appreciated.
Thank you. Lyndsey

If PAN was 45 and there were no Y1 children in the foundation classes it would be an ICS appeal. As it is I would be tempted to say they can go to 50 children in each year before it becomes ICS - there would then be 150 pupils split between 5 classes. If they present this as an ICS appeal I would certainly argue that, on the current class arrangement, it isn't.

If the panel accepts this is not an ICS case you simply need to put the best possible case as to why your daughter needs to go to this school. You have to be careful how you phrase it if you want to talk about your daughter's abilities and the way she will be stretched by the appeal school. Remember that it is possible one or more of the appeal panel will be connected to children at the allocated school. Any features of the appeal school that are missing from the allocated school and that would be of benefit to your daughter are relevant.

If the panel decide this is an ICS case you will probably lose as you don't have any evidence of a mistake. If that happens I would refer it to the LGO to see what they think.

prh47bridge
Thank you, when I spoke to the LA today, I asked them to confirm the details of why we were refused a place at the preferred school. I mentioned that I had spoken to someone last week who informed me it was due to oversubscription, distance and ICS, which in their view was the same as oversubscription. I said I wanted to make sure I had my facts right in my letter but they wouldnt even look up my details to tell me. She said, if that is what I have already been told them that is what it will be, I told her the allocation letter only mentioned oversubscription and she said it didnt need to go into detail on the letter as that would take up too much time. Is this right? I said I wanted to query the details of the ICS, as the school had told me the present numbers so was the refusal based on the numbers for this year or future prejudice. She said, they will always be the samne number so it doesnt make any difference. Just when I thought I was getting to grips with the ICS rules, I am confused yet again.

and your post just goes to show that you now have a greater understanding of the ICS regs than the LA admission office!
I suspect that the only way you are going to get any sense (and even then you might not) is to go to appeal and start asking a few questions of the presenting officer.