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ofsted question, how linked are the overall ofsted to the sats results?

29 replies

AnotherOfstedQuestionSorry · 02/05/2012 18:42

since last ofsted school went from 82% achieving level 4 or above in english and maths to 69% then up to 79% this years results are expected to be around 80%

How much emphasis is placed on these results? and is 69% really bad? not sure how to find natonal averages on that figure

OP posts:
Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
AnotherOfstedQuestionSorry · 02/05/2012 19:51

bump?

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daisymaybe · 02/05/2012 19:54

IME, a lot.

AnotherOfstedQuestionSorry · 02/05/2012 20:03

so if they had a good when the results were 82% it is likely to be significantly different with a blip down to 69%?

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redskyatnight · 02/05/2012 20:07

"average" for 2011 was 67%. Whether your school's SATs results are good or not depends on the intake. If it consists solely of children from middle class families and very involved parents 69% seems a bit low. My DS's school's results are (slightly) below that average but children enter the school "significantly" below average, so that represents a good result for the school.

fatherchewylouis · 02/05/2012 20:09

The percentages don't really mean very much on their own. Other factors such as school size and starting point of pupils came make a massive difference.

E.g. an otherwise average percentage of pupils getting SAT 4s at a schooll where children are coming in very below average abilities would indidcate an excellent school but the same figure for a school with children arriving well above average would suggest a poor school not acheiveing results the children are capable.

Also, with a small school you can get much bigger fluctuations in the percentages,for example if their are 10 in a year group then 1 child will make up 10% of the results, but with a year group of 90 or 120 a single child will make a significantly lower impact on the results.

PlanningTakesTooLong · 02/05/2012 20:13

Biggest ofsted red flag is below floor standard which is 60% Eng and maths. If the dips are above 60% and backed up by data explaining why the cohorts differed it should be ok.

AnotherOfstedQuestionSorry · 02/05/2012 21:08

thanks all.
it is quite a small school. But I guess that is counterbalanced by the background of the parents in the catchment area. perhaps expectations could be high.

So an extra question. if sats levels are satisfactory is it ever possible for a school to be over all outstanding or is it capped because of the actual results?

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daisymaybe · 02/05/2012 21:17

If SATs have gone down since the last inspection that's not good, purely in terms of what the inspectors will have seen before they even set foot in the school. It looks like more of a dip though, I shouldn't think that it will be a big current concern if the school can prove progression throughout the current intake.

AnotherOfstedQuestionSorry · 02/05/2012 21:19

thanks Daisy

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Bunnyjo · 02/05/2012 21:35

IM limited E, SATs results do not necessarily correlate with OFSTED performance. DD's school is a small village school which has been getting better SATs results year on year - last year they achieved 100% level 4 in all subjects, 60% level 5 in maths and 40 % level 5 in english and science. The school was inspected this March and scored a very strong grade 2 rating - it was good with outstanding features. Significant improvement was noted from previous inspection, which was also grade 2, but the overall grade remained the same. I guess that's obviously something to do with the new OFSTED inpection criteria, which appears to be far more rigid for a reason only known to Gove Hmm. The school is also 7th in our county for SATs results.

NeverKnowinglyUnderstood · 02/05/2012 21:38

thanks Bunny Jo

redskyatnight · 03/05/2012 09:25

DS's school has "satisfactory" attainment and is "good with outstanding features" overall. The Ofsted report remarks that the "satisfactory" attainment is actually good considered relative to the intake of the school.

crazymum53 · 03/05/2012 09:48

In small schools the percentage can change significantly if there are more children with SEN in one year group working below level 4. This could account for the drop for one year group.
"So an extra question. if sats levels are satisfactory is it ever possible for a school to be over all outstanding or is it capped because of the actual results?"
Yes I believe the OFSTED rating is capped due to results. So if results are only satisfactory the school cannot have an outstanding rating overall (even if it is judged to be outstanding in other areas).

happyhorse · 03/05/2012 10:18

The school nearest to us has very unimpressive SATS but has been rated Outstanding. Having looked around it I have no idea what's supposed to be outstanding about it.

ragged · 03/05/2012 10:30

Happyhorse, What do you call "very unimpressive" SATs? Is the VA measure quite high?

happyhorse · 03/05/2012 10:51

54% Achieving level 4 or above in English and Maths - that's poor compared to other schools in the area. The VA measure is very high but I'm not sure what that is. Does it link performance to the demographic of the intake? I'm sure that must be a factor in the results of this school.

Aside from the SATS though, I really couldn't see why it was rated outstanding. There was nothing bad about the school, but to me it felt more on a par with 'satisfactory' rated schools that I've visited. The other outstanding school we visited really did seem to be outstanding in so many ways.

ragged · 03/05/2012 11:11

VA measure = value added, it means that the children have increased attainment levels hugely from what you say.

VAM is supposed to be as important as actual raw SAT numbers, in Ofsted gradings (I found a link that said that). Also, though I may be wrong, I think VAM is measured in a simple way as % gain from starting point. Thing is, children who come in with social advantages retain those & tend to improve at an above average rate. Meanwhile, kids with problems that limited their starting ability keep those same problems, so will have below average improvement by end of y6. So a high VAM for children with low intake scores, would be bucking the trend & suggests the school IS rather unusually good. At least for kids who start at a low base.

I think you are quite right to note that the feel of "satisfactory" vs. other gradings is probably very hard to discern for school parents. It comes down to invisible things like box-ticking, paperwork, written policies, luck on the day and SAT results.

Of course schools in a higher income area may well have a wealthier PTA, PTA often funds things like new facilities & equipment, so the newer/better looking school may come down to being in a wealthier area, which will tend to have higher KS2 SATs so it all comes together to improve gradings. At least, I suspect that Ofsted gradings are fairly biased by how spiffy, spic&span a school "looks", too.

ragged · 03/05/2012 11:16

ps: in what ways was the "outstanding" school you visited so much better? (sorry for being so nosy, musing what, if anything, we've missed out on).

DD went to a nursery at an outstanding school; it was a custom built nursery building that I highly approved of. Honestly, the physical facilities were the very best thing about it, the rest was fine in my mind, but nothing glowing in comparison to the many many other preschools DC have attended. The school newsletters were nicely laid out & crisply informative whilst being friendly & enthusiastic. They seemed very organised.

BUT not very different from the merely satisfactory school DD went onto & has thrived at.

happyhorse · 03/05/2012 11:35

OK, so in terms of getting the best out of the children who attend there it would seem to be very good, and it's great that they're recognised for that. I'll have to take more of an interest in the VA results.

The other outstanding school had a lovely headteacher who took the time to show us round and tell us about the school. I was impressed by how she and the other staff interacted with the children. The classrooms were lovely and the school had a really calm atmosphere despite a higher intake. It really did 'feel' very different from the other outstanding school. And they seem to put a lot of thought into how to make the topics interesting for the children and how to help them enjoy school and settle well.

They do have a very active PTA so the equipment they're able to supply for the children is quite impressive, but that isn't what made us feel that it was the right place for DS.

There's a preschool onsite, run separately, but also very well funded and impressive. Despite that I chose quite a shabby looking (in comparison) preschool for DS and have never regretted it. I didn't get that gut feeling about the 'outstanding' rated preschool and it's staff. Because of that I really trust gut instinct over ofsted reports. Myself and DH walked out of the two primary schools with such different feelings about them that we didn't think there was any comparison.

I hope that makes sense.

crazymum53 · 03/05/2012 15:27

How it used to happen under the old framework was that schools were placed in bands according to the social demographics of the area (%FSM etc.). So if your SATs grades were above the average for comparable schools nationally then you could still have OFSTED outstanding rating even if your results were below other schools in the area. One of the problems with the new framework is that this no longer applies.
Schools with an Outstanding grade may not be inspected for another 5 years so a lot can change over that period of time.
A report for a school inspected in 2007/8 may therefore not be comparable with a school inspected in 2011/12 as the goalposts have moved!

KingscoteStaff · 03/05/2012 15:48

Results are linked in that with the new framework, if the school isn't Outsanding for Teaching and Learning, then they can't be outstanding overall, despite scoring toppity top top on leadership, management, safeguarding, and all the other things on the list. If the SATs results appear low, then your Teaching and Learning mark will be low, even if all the actual lessons they observe are outstanding.

The other link is that a noticeable fall in SATs can trigger an OFSTED. Which is why we Year 6 teachers are currently chewing the carpet - our results could bring OFSTED down on our whole school and then our colleagues will never speak to us again.

snowball3 · 03/05/2012 18:07

The other link is that a noticeable fall in SATs can trigger an OFSTED. Which is why we Year 6 teachers are currently chewing the carpet - our results could bring OFSTED down on our whole school and then our colleagues will never speak to us again.

If I hear " Whether OFSTED come this year depends on the SATs results, hopefully Mrs Snowball3 appreciates how important this years results will be" one more time in a staff meeting, I shall cry Sad

KingscoteStaff · 03/05/2012 22:28

It's worse here, Snowball3, people keep coming into my classroom and asking me if we're revising much...

"You know it's for all of our sakes, don't you?"

KingscoteStaff · 06/05/2012 07:43

And even better, "You have sent your class home with extra revision for the bank holiday, haven't you? We don't want them getting stale..."

Rosebud05 · 06/05/2012 08:18

At the moment, the Ofsted result is linked to how much Gove wants to give that particular school to his friends ie become a sponsored academy.

Whether 69% is 'bad' or not depends, as others say, on intake, though the fact that they've risen since then is in the school's favour.

Progress is the other important measurement ie the & KS2 pupils making 'expected' progress.

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