What would you do? Moral dilemma

[PrincessTamTam]

OK, I need some advice... I have just found out that a child in my DSs nursery who has been offered a reception place for next year on the basis of having 2 siblings attending the school already, actually won't have any siblings there in September 2012. The school is heavily over subscribed with a long waiting list.

Both the child's siblings are leaving to attend a local private prep feeder to a very competitive private secondary. I know this through a very good source, it is definite, but I am not sure they have yet informed the school that they are leaving at the end of the summer term. To be fair to them, at the time of making the application, they did not know the older child would be accepted and therefore were not expecting to definitely change schools, just that it was a possibility.

This is very common in this area and especially at this school, there is a large exodus of children at the end of year 3 and then a steady trickle up to year 6 as people panic they wont get their kids into the private secondary.

The question is do I tell anyone? My DS (or others ahead of me on the list) may well not get a place that will be taken up by this child who not only should not have got in, but who will then leave at the end of infants. I think this is wrong, but I don't really know what to do with the information as I'm not sure I want to be the kind of person who informs on people. WWYD?

there's nothing you can do.

The child's siblings attended at the school at the time of place allocation. That is all that counts. And tbh, why shouldn't the child attend that particular school?

They haven't done anything wrong. At the time of application the child had a sibling at the school - who technically would still be there is September. What do you expect them to do? Tell the school to give their place to someone else, as it's no longer fair?! It may annoy you, but there is really nothing you can do.

Whilst v frustrating, I'm not sure whether they have done anything wrong. It is like a person who applies for a place then moves further away in June. They were awarded the place on the basis of the original situation, which was that the siblings were in the school, and what if the older child hadn't got a place but they didn't put down the sibling link, there would be three school runs. I imagine if it were wrong then when they say older ones are leaving they would lose place, but I don't think that they have done anything legally wrong, if morally slightly dubious, but it is very frustrating for you. Our school is a bit like yours, waiting to see who leaves at the end of dd1 year. An admissions expert might be along soon to advise further.

I also think the criteria is a sibling at the school at the time of application. Last year, only 50% of applicants started 2011/12 got a place in Reception. There were two Y6 siblings and both their sisters both got in neither met the religious criteria.

Where we are the sibling needs to be in a year such that they would still be there in September, so yr 5 or lower at age of application, but they won't take away a place from someone who legitimately applied for it.

My DD is currently a Yr2 at an Infant School. She has a couple of classmates with siblings who have applied to start Reception in September and because the school is oversubscribed this year a couple haven't got places (but have been offered other schools).

I don't know if the LA have taken into account that the older siblings will not be there in Sept (having moved up to the Junior school) or whether they live nearer a school with spaces and that's why they've been offered an alternative

Thanks everyone, its a tricky one:
Wannabe yes why shouldn't the child attend the school? But equally why shouldn't someone who actually lives in the catchment area (not outside like this child), has no siblings there, but will stay until year 6 rather than leave after using it as a pre prep, attend the school? It doesn't seem fair to me. I do think you are right that technically they haven't done anything wrong, its just a bit dubious that although the decision has been made they haven't informed the school yet.

Although I do understand they have to have a cut off point somewhere, it does state that the siblings should attend the school at the same time ie: children in year 6 do not count, so nor should children leaving from any other year. I think if I were the school, when they inform them they are taking their children out, I would be inclined to withdraw the reception place at that point and offer it to the next child on the list. I do think that this would be fair, but I am not sure this is the policy.

I don't think it would be fair to the child concerned to withdraw their place. Think that through - at the moment the child knows where they're going and has been attending a nursery class leading up to the school? and you want to remove that, cause that child uncertainty and the child's parents doubtless much stress so it can be 'fair' to everyone else but them?

They've applied according to the criteria and they have the place. An extreme example but what if parents apply on the basis of a sibling and the sibling then dies before the second child starts school. Would you be demnding the place be withdrawn then?

I think this comes under the heading of things you don't need to know or act on tbh. You can't possibly know what they will do at the end of Infants either. That's three years away, they may not be able to afford private. Your circumstances could have changed and you are thinking of that. Would you like people thinking you had 'stolen' a place?

In my opinion, it should be only fair that the school revoke the youngest child's place if the place was offered on the basis of siblings still attending the school by the time the youngest child starts Reception in September. But: are you sure was this the only reason? Perhaps the child was offered the place on the basis of distance from school instead? Is it possible that the family lives relatively close to this school, so they could have gotten in this way? Hard to know unless you talk to the parents in question.

Adding to Northernlurkers excellent post. Children often leave schools before the end of school eg. Parents get a job in another part of the UK, abroad, or move back to their country of origin. Some of these people may already be planning to do this when their child starts reception. All sorts of life changes happen. So a line has to be drawn and stuck to.

In our LA, a child living outside the catchment with siblings in the school would not get priority over a child living within the catchment. Siblings get priority once all the children in catchment have a place.

Northern, I understand your argument but on the other hand, all the children on the waiting list are suffering the same uncertainty (well tbh not the children the parents) and stress now. If it were not for the fact that they are deliberately not informing the school of their plans for their other children, I may agree with you that it would not be fair. However this seems to be what they are doing, suggesting they realise it is not right.

The comparison to the sibling dying is irrelevant as clearly that is a completely different circumstance.

No, I don't know for sure what they will do at the end of infants, but what they've done with their other children is an indicator of what they would like to do. I am not sure what the last two sentences mean, I haven't 'stolen' a place??

I do, however, agree with your statement that it comes under the heading of things you don't need to know or act on! I wish I didn't know tbh as it does gall me, I can't help it, and I will almost certainly not act on it anyway.

Audrey - yes, I know where they live, it is outside catchment. There are at least 15 on the waiting list nearer to the school.

Riverside - this was the arrangement in our LA until this year, hence the frustration. The problem with the new arrangement will be people renting near the school to get their first DC in, and then moving wherever they want and taking places from those living very close. These things are never fair to everyone, but this seems crazy especially with the emphasis on walking to school which our LA is very hot on!

I would think they would revoke the place as the siblings would not be starting in September as this is what it is based on. My friends DD was in Year 6 and as she would be leaving by the time her youngest started reception it didn't count. If it was me I would let the LA know. If they have done nothing wrong then fine but if they have then that is unfair.

Sorry I meant - if you decide you want to go private at the end of Infants then you could be described as having 'stolen' a place by random other parents because you haven't gone right through to Yr 6 and another child might have. They might assume you had 'always intended it'. That would clearly be absurd for that to be regarded like that though - because you know you intend to go all the way through and even if you didn't places are allocated on the status quo at application and not the ongoing situation. Do you see what I mean? It's just about being able to look at things from the other families standpoint and then I think it's clear there is no 'fairer' way to proceed. I'm glad you don't intend to try and interfere.
As far as why they haven't told the school. There is no compulsion on them to do so at the very beginning of this term. They may still be getting the money together to pay for the private school. They haven't done anything wrong so there's no need for them to notify anybody.
I know it's horrible to have a dc on a waiting list but that's because there aren't enough places at the school. It's not helpful to anybody to make it personal and think of a child as having unfairly 'bagged' a place. I hope your dc progresses up the list very soon.

I don't think it is morally fair, mainly because they are witholding information from the school now. You are right it is probably technically fair though so it's no good dwelling on it!

I think if you are planning to emigrate after 10 months then it's ok to take up the place - plans may change after all and your child should not be deprived of an education for those 10 months. But this is different, they KNOW their children will not be there in September, and everyone at this school KNOWs about the change to criteria and what these criteria are, so it is clear this is why the parents are deliberately holding back the information that the siblings are leaving. IMO this is why it is morally wrong and unfair on those of us on the waiting list (15 did not get into the school from nursery this year, 36 places were given to siblings). .

By all means tell someone if you feel you should but I would be VERY surprised if it made any difference.

Thanks for your sympathy, it is a horrible time tbh and this information came when I was feeling very glum and unsure what to do with it ... that's why I was canvasing opinion on here.

Schools - I agree siblings should not be prioritised at secondary, that's absurd! My older DSs have never travelled together to school and you are right, would rather pull out their own toenails than do so! . I really hope it works out for your DS.

I think the key here is the expectation of what will happen to the elder siblings. In this case if there seems to have been an expectation that the elder siblings would not be in the school in September that is applications had been made for a place at the independent school before the cut off date then the parents should have communicated to the LA a major change of information. If they did not the original application could therefore have been considered to have been misleading and the place should therefore be withdrawn.
If there was no knowledge that the elder siblings were leaving at the time of last date of application then I would suggest that the place is secure.

What happens if one of the parents is made redundant in the next couple of months and so their older siblings do return in Sept because they can no longer afford the fees? You can only prove that the siblings won't return in Sept either when the parents formally withdraw them or when they start the prep.

It may be that the parents are still hedging their bets a bit in these uncertain times.

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