Upcoming SATS and constant testing of children

[cantfindamnnickname]

DS is 11 in year 6 - for the last half of last term and this term and presumably until the SATS the teacher is constantly giving them SATS papers to do, they are literally doing 2 or 3 tests every day and the pressure is immense.

I am not impressed and think its ridiculous - I have raised this issue with the Head and she agrees that its not the way to do it - she has only been there since January however and is making lots of changes to the school so I think she is reluctant to challenge this at the moment.

I do not want DS under this much pressure - is there any guidance from Ofsted about SATS or best practice so that i can go to head and force her to deal with the issue now?

I agree that not all teachers are good, but SATS tests don't do anything to improve bad teaching.

I happen to have a group of maths results here. Out of 19 students, 11 were teacher assessed as level 4 at KS2. 9 of them achieved a level 4 in their KS2 SATs. Only 1 of them achieved a level 4 in the assessment we did at the start of Y7. Remember that the numbers of students achieving a level 4 at KS2 is very important to primary schools.

Obviously a very small sample, but this is why my secondary school doesn't pay much attention to KS2 results!

Our dd brought home a set of L5's at the end of Y6. She is top average.

Of far greater importance were: the Wandsworth test, the tests for two state cofe schools and the three independents we applied to. She received five offers (Got 2nd state choice first which is how we know). She's top average and there is no way we would have applied for really selective schools such as Tiffin, Nonsuch, LEH, SPGS. We do not believe in tutoring and remain at some of the parents who did enter their children for such selective schools and then complained the head was unsupportive, and were then devastated when their dc were turned down by WHS, LEH, KCS etc.

If the primary school hadn't been preparing the children for success in y3, 4, and 5 there would have been a problem. I recall no pressure whatsoever over SATS and we told our dd they were insignificant compared to the entrance tests and didn't matter in the slightest because by the time she took them she already had secondary school offers.

Having said all that the choice of secondary didn't work out and we moved her at the end of Y8!

Maybe I, being quite old, can shed some light here.

Teacher assessments: I am very supportive of teachers, however, there is no doubt about it, despite our best hopes and desires, not all teachers 'are equal'- just like the rest of us! And with the best will in the world, IF a teacher's on-going career advancement, or school's OFSTED (and LT position) is dependent on things like how well the DC they taught apparently perform, wouldn't anybody be persuaded that some massaging might be the best policy? And IF you had the opportunity to push a couple of kids 'over the line' who you knew actually weren't 'that good' via 'teacher's assessment' rather than National, independent SATS , might you be tempted?!

My DB went to a SM, 1972-77.

His reports pretty much glowed, Y7-10, then, suddenly! Report/parents eve:- DB's performance has dropped away dramatically this year! What can have gone wrong? DB won't do well in his CSEs with this performance, you know! Which was true- 2 low grade CSEs. Naughty DB! Til mum and dad, a year or two later, compared notes with another parent whose DC had just left- turns out every DC that this other parent knew (the game was approaching being 'up' by then) at that school followed the same trajectory- apparently stellar Y7-10, then..What went wrong?! Cue lots of hand wringing from the school but- 'What can you do?'

So, no, actually, to 'teacher assessments'.

Q: 'As far as I remember degrees don't just rely on exams and as far as I have heard, GCSE's include an awful lot of course-work - that's the equivalent of different ways of testing....'

You need to read the Press. Gove's huge on removing course-work from GCSEs- why? Employers and FE colleges are bearing the brunt of the fact the DC don't know the facts as they've not been independently assessed.

Q: 'There seems to be some underlying hostility here and just curious to know what it's about....?' Hostility to what? For or against SATS?

Finally poor SATS results confirm poor teaching. They maybe don't improve that cohort's 'bad teaching' but they sure reveal it!

Is also very old and remembers the 11+ and O'Levels.

Bows to ampere. Exactly - it measures the performance of schools NOT the performance of children and that is why the value added scores are so important. Our dc's school always appeared to do badly on that because it was in an affluent area a lot of the dc left at 7 or 8 and the school was judged on the high levels at reception compared to relatively lower levels in Y6 because a lot of the children had, by then, transferred to the independent sector. By the time dd left, who saw it through to 11, there were fewer than a third of the reception left.

Q: 'There seems to be some underlying hostility here and just curious to know what it's about....?' Hostility to what? For or against SATS?

Er, hostility to other posters ampere?

Well I agree with you about SATS.

And I do read the Press! But currently GCSEs do include significant course-work assessments and some exams too.... They might not in the future as they didn't in the past (when I took O Levels) but that's not the current state of affairs...

And Graveney is a very, very well regarded comprehensive with four streams.... Presumably the fact that they are one of the top performing comprehensives in the Country and they use a four pronged approach to assessing their Year 7s must mean something....

Two of neighbouring primaries have come in the top 5 of KS2 League Tables in our Borough in recent years. Is it because of outstanding teaching or, as is generally deemed to be the case amongst local parents, that the Year 6s are prepped long and hard to get good SATS results? Methinks it is the latter rather than the former.

I totally agree with removing course work from GCSE's. Perhaps boys might find that their results go up significantly (because generally they perform better in exam conditions than girls) and it guards against Mummy and Daddy helping their DCs to do course-work brilliantly...

No, just you nonastemia

gazz- an interesting point re Graveney.

At my DS's secondary (one DS 'to be'), "90% of pupils achieved 5+ A* to C grades at GCSE, inc maths and English - compared to the England state school average of 58%" (Quote, Guardian). And they don't set!

Our Y6's are prepped 'well' if not 'long and hard' but I guess we buy into the ethos: work hard, achieve your best. Be prepared to stand up and show what you know.

I know that Ds will be gutted if he 'just' gets L4.
Do you not think that, if your son is capable of a level five, he should be upset if he underachieves through lack of effort?

I told his teacher, in front of Ds, that I couldn't care less what level he got.
I'm sure the teacher was thrilled that you undermined his encouragement for your child to achieve well in front of him.
You sound very pleased with yourself. Will you have the same attitude when your child decides he doesn't need to revise for his GCSEs because it doesn't matter what level he gets?

I will be Bl**dy fed up if DS secondary sets purely on SATS.

Because he is working at a very comfortable level 6; he tried a test which I had downloaded off the internet tonight and acheived a good mark in half the time. He was only doing it for fun, so raced through it and missed out anything that looked like hard work.
The school have decided not to put any of them in for L6 "because they'd have to teach a small group the extra topics and they haven't got the resources" (which is true, and I agree that it is fairer overall for them to put the resources into the DCs who are barely at level 3, not because of the SATS, but because these children really need to catch up ASAP).

However, there are a bunch of children in DSs class, consistently getting 5As, and it looks to me as though if you can get top marks on a level 5 test, you could probably wing 50% (which is all you need) on a level 6 test.

The annoying thing is that the other main feeder school is putting loads in for Level 6, and they might end up in a "Top set" where my DS belongs.

choccy My feeling is that, well, 'this too shall pass'. Once your DS is up and flying (as surely he will?) at Secondary, you won't feel so 'bloody fed up'. Once they set foot in secondary, and they've done 'well' at primary, they'll look onwards and upwards. No one will argue the toss of L5 and L6 any more. Some apparently high achievers will take time to settle at secondary, other more 'average' DC will hit the ground running. It does even out, but I stand by the caveat that passing SATS (L4) and doing a bit better (L5) versus not passing (L3 and lower) is where it's at.

In that respect, could I maybe suggest that you are perhaps 'overthinking' the significance of personal achievement in SATS over 'this primary has done a good job with these DC' which is actually what SATS were designed for!

The secondary has enormous experience in correctly setting (if that's what they do- ours doesn't!). A L6 SATS won't entirely convince them either way, they'll see for themselves.

Seeker I do remember being told by all the schools we looked at for DD in year 6 that the pupils are reassessed when they get to secondary school and they don't take previous sats scores into account. Maybe now things have changed for all schools or each school might now set their own policy.

ampere, I would say that the best way to hide bad teaching is to forget about all the tricky education stuff and teach to the test.

I have passed many many exams in my life (the first one being for one of the 'super selective schools' mentioned in married in white's post). However, my working experience is that passing exams only gets you so far. In this day and age, where many jobs (Digital Marketing?) didn't even exist 5 years ago and other jobs disappear (disappearance of heavy industry, growth of offshore calls centres, technological changes etc. etc.) having exam skills, while useful, may not be that relevant to the work place.

sue52 It depends on the individual school - around here different secondaries do everything, from Cat testing to setting using SAT results exclusively. Each one is different.

Thanks Freenie. I wonder why secondary schools have such different attitudes towards the value of past primary school sats results.

My son complains he is stressed. He is in Yr 6 and some kids will be taking Level 6 SATS as the school is SATS obsessed. I feel sympathy for him but have told him that he needs to get used to it because this is just the beginning......

sUE52 My experience of secondary schools is that they test pupils during the first few weeks of year 7. It seems to make the expense of running SATS seem a little pointless perhaps?

As I say, before you say that SATS have no relevance to your child and go to Center Parcs that week, check your secondary schools's streaming criteria.

I do appear to be invisible on threads like this- but ds's prospective secondary school is not alone in this.

sunscorch I try to keep things in perspective. How my son performs now will not dictate how the rest of his life will follow. We encourage him to do his best all of the time, but we have explained to him that sometimes people don't test well. Some people just have a bad day, and as long as they have tried their best then they should never be disappointed.

I think, that for a child who has gone from really struggling at a level 1, (not through lack of effort) to be able to get a level 4 is something to celebrate. So yes, I suppose I probably do sound very pleased with myself. He has worked extremely hard, and I am not going to let him feel like he has failed.

merrymouse Q:" I have passed many many exams in my life ..... However, my working experience is that passing exams only gets you so far. In this day and age, where many jobs (Digital Marketing?) didn't even exist 5 years ago and other jobs disappear (disappearance of heavy industry, growth of offshore calls centres, technological changes etc. etc.) having exam skills, while useful, may not be that relevant to the work place."

BUT the big thing is, you can't get near the Big Jobs without your passport, usually A Degree in the correct or related subject- at least one that demonstrates you can think critically to the required level. Very few office juniors make it to MD these days because that career trajectory just isn't there any more. 'Passing exams' in themselves might not be relevant 'in the workplace' but you sure need to pass them in order to be offered employment in that workplace!

Finally, I too, think a parent needs to think carefully before removing a DC for SATS week. Even if you are convinced they make 'no difference' to their setting in secondary, they reveal an attitude about you that might not create the best 'first impression' at your DC's secondary!

happy -level 4 isn't failure!

Of the schools we looked at for ds, each set in different ways. The one I reacted against the strongest was one where they all come in on a Saturday to sit tests, and are streamed on day one using the results. There appears to be little movement between the sets; or at least the teacher I talked to about it was very cagey when I asked if late bloomers can move up (and vice versa).

The school he will be going to in September sets from Y8, using a combination of tests in Y7, teacher observation and Y6 SATs scores. This seemed reasonable to me. There are opportunities to move sets, as long as there is room. I get the impression that the teachers are very skilled at differentiating though so fingers crossed the pupils at the top and bottom of each set don't lose out so it shouldn't be such a big deal.

As for why schools take different approaches, there are probably many reasons. I'm glad there are different approaches though. It goes to show that despite everything people say about government interference, that schools are able to respond to the needs of their intake. Having said that I'm not sure any government has tried to interfere quite as much as the current one has, so this might change.

Ampere I hope you are right, and that DS will find his correct level fairly quickly; it may well be fine, as the schools liaise a fair bit, and you'd hope that the secondary school could very easily spot the difference between "scraped a L6 in the test" and "can understand 90% of L6 work, but did not actually sit the test".

However I am reliably told by parents of older children that changing sets is extremely difficult, because if you move sets in Maths or English, you also have to move from French to German and change your IT group etc. etc.

In other words it seems in reality to be a case of "timetabling software says no"

Of course the secondary school insists that they are flexible in their setting throughout the whole 5 years, but we can only wait and see at this stage. (and make sure that the teacher assessments for DS reflect his true ability).

seeker I quite agree with you. It was just a wry observation. Of course people should check on the situation vis a vis SATs at their own secondary school. Also I do feel that SATs serve a purpose by giving pupils valuable practice in how to tackle a test (whatever the individual outcome may be).