KS1 teachers advice please - my DD with SN

[NorksandSpencer]

I was wondering whether some of the wonderful teachers who contribute to this board would be able to offer me their opinions on the suitability of my DD for MS school. I have posted about this previously (diff name) on the SN board but would really appreciate a teacher's perspective.

My DD has a rare genetic condition leading to developmental delays in all areas. Physically she is petite but able to walk, run (of a fashion), climb, play and generally hold her own.

She hasn't been assessed recently but is probably 18 - 24 months behind cognitively and at least 24 months with language.

She doesn't yet talk although she has a few word approximations she uses at home and a handful of makaton signs. Her receptive language is much better.

She is already 4 but we have delayed her school entry for 1 year (all agreed with preferred school and LEA) so she will start reception in 2013 age 5 and a half approx.

She already has a Statement which supports her in her MS nursery and we fully expect her to get a full time LSA for school. She copes well in nursery and seems to learn from her peers by observing and then copying.

So, our hearts tell us we want her in our village school where her brother attends and where she can truly be part of our local community. But our heads keep nagging away that maybe it's just unrealistic to think that she will be able to cope in this environment. We have a SS within about 15 miles which she could attend as an alternative.

We have no idea yet whether she will ever be able to read or write. She doesn't seem to learn anything independently - everything has to be broken down into small tasks and taught piece by piece.

Sorry, I've rambled. I would really appreciate any experience and thoughts that might help me unravel some of the confusion I'm feeling right now.

My honest answer is you won't know until you try. I would be inclined to think from your description you are realistically looking at SS for your daughter in the future. Good Luck with what is a very difficult decision. x

I should add that I have taught a child with a similar level of delay in reception and again in Y2 in MS

Thank you Mrz. We have had it in our minds that we may start in MS and have to move into SS later. We just want to give MS a try but not if it's going to be a negative and bewildering experience for DD.

Can I ask you to tell me a little more about the child you refer to? Were they able to integrate and be part of the class.

I would give it a try. I work with many children with delays similar to how you describe your dd, some cope, some don't and I can't predict which ones it will work out for. Have you visited the SS to see what they could offer your dd in terms of more specialist input?

Thanks you PandaNot. I'm a bit ashamed to say I can't get past an emotional barrier for the SS along the lines of "my DD doesn't fit in here". I have visited it twice with my DH and both times we've walked out and said it's not for DD. I know that's totally unscientific and I'm worried that it's more about what we feel than necessarily what's right for DD. I just don't know.

I do know DD takes ages to settle into a new setting and we've already delayed her by a year and I'm concerned that if we try MS and it fails, she may in effect have lost a year.

You won't have wasted a year, she'll be learning from the children, just as she is now. Do you only have a choice of one SS? There are 8 that I go into regularly and they all have a very different 'feel' to one another. In what way does she not fit in? Not trying to say you're wrong, just wondering! :)

It's a big decision, you don't need to rush it.

Will you lose the chance of the place in SS if you put her into MS?

(I know this is slightly different but an ASD child in my class was offered a SS place last year which the parents declined and we muttered furiously about as SS places are like gold dust! However, he has grown up so much this year, and, with a ft TA and several visiting agencies, is no problem at all. So, it was the right call from the parents.
I think what I'm saying is - go with your gut instinct as you know your child.)

I would say that reception and year one are doable, and that is quite a chunk of time. you can reassess later. you do not know how she will fit in, how the school and the children will adapt and they might surprise you and she will fit in wonderfully. I am one for going with gut instinct.

Thank you for your replies. We probably have a choice of 2 SS, one in county and one out. The in county one is the one we would go with if we go down the SS route.

We wouldn't lose the chance of a SS place if we go MS we would just have to take our chances on getting a place when we wanted one iyswim for an in-year admission.

I can't really articulate why she didn't seem to fit in at the SS other than to say that because she doesn't have any behavioural or sensory issues, is physically able and is sociable, she seemed different to many of the children that we happened to see when we visited. As I write that I am aware how superficial that sounds and I am aware that, despite not having these issues, she's probably cognitively at least as delayed if not more so than many of the children at the SS. Sorry, I'm trying to be honest here, but terrified of offending anyone.

I guess it's partly also because she's "delayed" and I keep hoping she will catch up one day. I also often think "if only she could talk she could show us everything she knows" and that that's probably more than we realise. On the other hand, I wonder if I'm in denial and deluded .

As you can see, all over the place

Thank you blackeyedsusan.

I actually think how you "feel" is really important in choosing a school for your dc, just as it is when you choose a home, for example. I tmight not be very objective or scientific, but then raising a child isn't objective - it involves a lot of emotions and gut instinct.
I agree with many of the others - I'd certainly try her in Reception and see how you go from there. If you really can get a FT LSA for her, then even more 'yes' (never come across it in my own LA, only on MN).
When I worked in special school, we used to get a lot of children coming into the school at aged 7ish - they'd coped OK in Reception and Yr1, and in Yr2 they found peers were just moving away more and more from 'where they were'. Of course, this might or moght not be the case with your dd, but you will be reviewing the Statement formally every year, and of course have reviews with the school more often to keep you informed.

Thanks BackforGood. When we visited the SS they mentioned that this often happens. My DD already gets the max statement hours for a pre-schooler so that is why I'm hopeful of a FT LSA although times are tougher now I guess than when her first statement was issued.

I'm really reassured that no-one is counselling against trying MS - in fact the opposite in most cases.

Thank you for all your input. I'm off to bed but will check back again tomorrow for any more posts.

I used to work as an educational psychologist. I regularly saw kids in MS school who had similar levels of functioning to that of your dd. There were big differences in the way MS schools were able and / or willing to support kids with SN. Some were fantastic, some less good. (Of course, the same is true of special schools.) I guess at this stage no-one is totally sure how your dd will progress? As said elsewhere, you could always give MS a go and if it didn't work out, think about a move at a later date.

I had another sneaky peek . Thanks neolara. My DDs EP also said that she'd seen children like DD in SS and in MS and that the decision had to be ours (in the sense that she wouldn't/couldn't advise us one way or the other.)

Our village primary has very little experience of dealing with children with learning difficulties as severe as DD is presenting with at present. But, they positively want her to attend, think she will be an asset to the school and so far, have been totally supportive of us, inc our request for a deferral. They are willing to work with an early years consultant who is working with our DD at home and I think (although don't know) would be open to us having input into the choice of LSA.

So, all in all, I feel positive. What's holding me back from just going for it, is my growing disappointment in my DDs progress (she seems to have stood still for a while) and linked to this a fear that we're putting her in a position that could be overwhelming for her.

I really am off to bed now. Thank you again for all the expert input.

I'm not a teacher and have no experience of SS. So feel absolutely free to ignore me.

But a full time LSA still (probably) wont be trained in how to teach children with severe / moderate learning difficulties. And probably neither will the teacher.

Nor will they have the training / experience in speech difficulties that a SS will.

So I think there's a very good chance she'll be babysat in a MS rather than taught.

If you know who the Reception teacher is - do you thinks she is absolutely amazing? That would be a key factor in my decision making process. For example, I wouldn't send her to MS if her teacher was going to be a NQT.

However, you might be fine with her just learning social skills and being happy, and be ok with not worrying about her academic progress now.

Sorry, I think my post came out all wrong and all offensive.

All I should have said was factor in the teachers likely training and experience into your decision making process.

And of course class size.

And also be clear whether you're more concerned about her life skills, social skills or academic progress.

As a mother who's child wasted 4 terms in mainstream (with full time 1:1 support) after a very successful mainstream nursery placement I would say don't go near mainstream with a barge pole tbh.

I agree with indigobell. The needs of children with significant delays are so different from the needs of a mainstream child and mainstream schools always prioritise the mainstream kids. The environment is often wrong as well, too noisy, not enough high handles for children to be given space to learn independently (so always having a TA sat on top of them) and a curriculum focussing on academic skills.

If you think your dd would benefit from a mainstream environment I would look into either part time placement at mainstream (I know a few who have done that - sort of dipped a toe in), or a special school with a mainstream unit attached. DS1's school has that. He's in the special school bit, but the more socially able kids go to the mainstream site, where they're often taught separately but join in the mainstream activities where appropriate.

Although that brings me to a different point, if your dd is socially able, so understands about sitting still, has enough speech/language/communication to join in with the mainstream setting, could cope with assemblies or school trips, and has completed toilet training, then that is more important than academic ability. Mainstream school's can often differentiate academic work, but they really, really struggle with difficulties in speech/communication/understanding of how to behave in a group.

Thank you for your replies Indigo and JimJams and for the different perspecives. No offence taken Indigo btw .

The current Reception class teacher and the school's SENCO are both very well thought of by other parents and my own impressions were also good. Of course, there's no guarantee that they will be in post when my DD is due to start school but, if they were, then yes that would be a factor pushing me towards giving it a go in MS.

With regard to what my priorities are for my DD then I would say I want her to learn life skills, social skills and some academic skills . Some children with similar conditions to my DD do learn to read and write but it's far too early for me to say yet what I think she's capable of achieving in this regard. Have I missed the point here? I want her to learn all of those things.

By September 2013, I do believe she will be able to sit still, have functional communication (even if that is signing), feed herself independently and be toilet trained - sufficient to be able to cope within a mainstream class setting. But, I do think being 1 of 30 children, the other 29 of whom will no doubt be nattering 19 to the dozen and tearing around could be overwhelming and possibly isolating for her.

I have time before I need to make a final decision but it's been so helpful to get the perspectives of others on here

If your own personal emphasis is on life skills I would send her to a decent special school tbh. Social skills, depends on how well she learns from other children (ds1 not at all, so being around NT kids was of no benefit - if your dd learns from other children it might me).

Just to give an example of what I mean. When Ds1 was at mainstream the classrooms were all open plan with doors out into the playground and outside everywhere. This meant that ds1 needed a TA glued to him at all times. He moved to his SLD/PMLD school in year 1 and within a few weeks they were starting to teach him to go to the office to fetch the register independently (so first going with him, then shadowing him, then leaving him to do it alone). His SLD school is secure so it's safe for him to go and fetch the register and get distracted, at mainstream they could never have tried that because he could easily get onto the road.

Obviously his curriculum emphasises life skills. He's 12 now and I asked school to work on road safety awareness, so last week he was carrying out a traffic survey for numeracy but I know road safety skills will have been built into this lesson.

Although the curriculum can be adapted, it's far harder to adapt the environment and a good special school will have lots of adaptations to the environment to encourage independence. It's something they're usually very good at. Plus if your child has communication problems I've found the total communication approach used by a lot of schools really benefits the children. My son for example doesn't sign that much, but was able to produce the sign 'death' (I had to look it up - didn't know what it was) when I was talking to him about someone dying. He's picked that up rom being in the school where sign is used all the time by pretty much everyone (along with PECS, and he has a talker as well).

I think a SS will know how to teach life skills and a MS probably won't. .

Sorry ladies, I think I've given the wrong impression. I'm not prioritising life skills above the other types of learning per se.

I think I see it as a pyramid really with life skills being the basics of what she needs, social skills thereafter and academic skills being the icing on the cake. I want her to reach her academic potential but that's difficult to guage because at the moment, I don't know what that is.

I do agree that a SS will be better placed to teach her life skills if she needs to learn them in a "formalised" way - rather than picking them up through her own experiences, learning at home and from observing her peers.

What I don't want to do now, more than a year out, is decide that focussing on life skills is the priority and potentially avoid giving her an academic challenge that she might just rise to.

If I'm going round in circles and not making much sense, I apologise.

Your question about prioritising life/social/academic threw me a bit . Bottom line is she needs all of them and I think it's too early to say whether she will achieve academically or not.

Thanks again for taking the time to post.

If her development is 'delayed' rather than 'disordered' then I would go with MS especially for Reception year where the teachers should be used to differentiating for a wide range of abilities and most learning is done through child-initiated activity anyway. Have another look at her next annual review and see whether she is making the progress that you would want to see in all areas.

Can I ask you to tell me a little more about the child you refer to? Were they able to integrate and be part of the class.

Most of the children had attended the nursery class in the Foundation Stage Unit but we took the decision based on the child's immaturity and development delay to initially keep nursery hours and access the nursery "teaching" rather than reception sessions, which worked well in some ways but the reception children started to see her as a nursery child not a classmate to the point they would send her to nursery when she chose to join in.
Once she joined the class full time she was readily accepted and very much part of the class with the children taking a very caring attitude towards her. Although the gap between her and her peers was huge she remained in the class for two years before her father decided to move her to SS based on her need to develop life skills. He asked me to visit the school with them and although it was wonderful with fantastic facilities it upset me as I didn't think she needed to make the change at that stage although it was obvious she would at some stage.

One thing to bear in mind is that many SS are very oversubscribed. I know a few children who have become 'stuck' in mainstream unable to move into special even with a disastrous placement because there's no room in the SS. Asking local parents is the best way to find out what it's like in your area. Part time special mainstream can be one way to prevent this.

I am, as you can probably guess not particularly pro mainstream education. I think it's tough on families as well as the kids (nothing quite a painful as the daily comparison). It also can be tough on siblings. I am very pleased ds2 & ds3 have not had to be in the same school as their brother (particularly from about year 4 up).

Sorry I don't set out to be negative as every child is different, but I think it's a shame specialist education is seem as second best when ime it's streets ahead of anything ds1 was able to get at mainstream. Mainstream became damaging to him and he was only there for 4 terms (although it was very successful in nursery).

Thank you Mrz for sharing that experience. My DD is very well accepted in her nursery and the children make allowances for her differences. Your story also resonates with the experience of my friend's DS who was very much cared for by his classmates - sometimes to the point of smothering by some of the little girls .

Thank you too JimJams I hadn't thought about the SS being over-subscribed and I will contact them again to ask them about that. I will also talk to them about the chance of a dual-placement - something which I know they are in favour of but which happens rarely because the LEA hates them.

The out of county SS that I visited is on the site of a MS school and makes much of it's integrative approach in its prospectus. However, my experience when visiting the school was that the integration was primarily in shared playground space,occasional shared assemblies (once per term I think) and for those SN children particularly gifted in one area e.g. maths, art of music, there was the opportunity to join the MS classes occasionally. This didn't feel particularly integrative to me. The facilities at this school were not remotely on a par with our in-county SS and I didn't like the feel of it even tho on reading its prospectus I had thought it was the answer to all my dreams!

Your point about siblings also really resonates with me. My DS will be in Y4 at our preferred MS if DD goes there and I do worry about the impact on him of having his sister in the school - we all know how cruel kids can be and I'm not sure how equipped he'll be to deal with it - another unknown that I'll probably only discover if I try it.

Pandanot the professionals have only ever talked about developmental delay rather than disordered development.

This thread is really helping me to think things through. Thank you everybody.