Refused a reception place at our nearest school, which is in another county.

[chimpysmum]

We live in a rural area. My son has been refused a place at the school nearest to our home (1.5 miles), which is in a neighbouring county. The letter says the school is oversubscribed. We didn't list any other preferences as we want our son to go to the nearest school, which is in a neighbouring village which we consider our community. The school place he has been allocated is just over 5 miles away (in our county) in a village we've never been to and have no connection with.

We think the refusal is because we live just over the county boundary and that they therefore consider us to be outside their designated area. We'd like to appeal, but have received no information about how to do this - we don't know which county's procedure to follow. Each county states in their guidelines that they will send full information on the appeals process with the notification, but neither of them has done so.

We want to know how a LEA can justify refusal when they have in their own guidelines requirements for reasonable distance of no more than 2 miles for under 8s? The refusal has placed our son in exactly that position. Also, in the previous year's intake there were quite a few children from places further away than us (also in our county, not the school's).

Because of the geography of our area, I'm convinced there must be children who've been accepted into the school because they are in the same county, even though they live further away than we do.

Also, will our son automatically be on a waiting list? Or do we have to do something to get him on it? Finally, is it worth asking the school if they'd consider applying to expand their class size to include our son?

Sound crazy at age 4 to go 5 miles :(

what is the schools admission criteria? Do they have a catchment that they prioritise, in which case i think they can take people further than you if they lie within the catchment?

Oh dear. You didn't put any other schools down?!

It probably is over subscribed. just because you want it, doesn't mean you should get it. If you wanted it that badly you should have moved to the neighboring county.

Sorry to be harsh, but you have been pretty daft.

Call both councils, look at all the schools in your area. Get proactive

you need to look at the school's catchment area and admission criteria... The border of the catchment may well be along the county line

The fact that you're near a county border makes no difference. There is no such thing usually as catchment. Children are allocated places based on which criteria they fall into (looked after, siblings, etc) presumably all spaces went to children with higher criteria than you then by distance and you are simply too far away this year.

Assuming the class has 30 you will find it very difficult to appeal unless a mistake has been made. Get yourself on waiting lists, accept the place you've got for the time being and keep fingers crossed.

Your LEA will provide transport as the school is over 2 miles away.

Some schools do have a catchment area i think Titchy - so even if they live 4 miles in catchment they get priority over someone 1.5 miles away but who is out of catchment

Given its a rural school, it may not be infant class size e.g. are classes smaller than 30? If so it may be easier to win an appeal. For more help you need to clarify the schools criteria

Some LEAs use catchment, some use distance and have no catchment areas

Chimpysmum,
You should apply to the LA that the school is in to both go on the waiting list and to appeal for the school. Do not assume that you will automatically be on the waiting list.
Different years can give very different results on which people get offered a place. In a rural school situation you only need a year with a few siblings in it to completely change the maximum distance that was offered places.
If there is a designated catchment zone it will not usually extend into your LA, so you will be classed as being out of catchment, no matter how much you think you belong to the local community. It is also the case that those in catchment may well be a lot farther away than you are but they will get admission priority over you as being out of catchment.
It is also the case that the school has no ability to take extra pupils. That is a decision that only the LA can make or an appeal panel can make, so it is not use asking the school to take extra kids, they just are not allowed to off their own initiative (unless you have a completely maverick head teacher).
What you consider reasonable travelling distance is not what matters, what matters is what is considered reasonable travelling distance in legal terms and that is very definitely much more than 2 miles, there are numerous legal cases over this. 2 miles is the distance at which an LA has to provide transport for the child to school (but not the parent), so you will get transport to the school offered. The important point is that an appeal based on distance to travel will almost always fail unless there are very extenuating circumstances.
Sorry I seem to being very negative but you need to be realistic about the situation.

Sorry schoolsnightmare the distance does sometimes get bigger, it did this year for my DCs senior school, in fact the furthest I have known it for more than 7 years. Apparently it was a low birthdate year here, but it regularly fluctuates in and out, depending on birth rate and number of siblings.

However OP you need to look at the entry requirements for the school, and also the furthest distance people were accepted.
You may also want to look at schools closer than the one you were offered, and decide of you want to go on the waiting lists.

we also live in a rural area with the nearest school being 2.7 miles which is our catchment school, we didnt get in as it was over subscribed, we dont have siblings at the school, so we were pushed to the bottom of the waiting list as we are the last house in catchment, the next 2 closest school were also on our list and again due to distance we didnt get in, so we were allocated the next nearest school that had places available which is 6.2 miles this was last year we were still on the waiting lists for our 3 closest school till march..we are still on the same waiting lists but now its for an in year allocation....you do have to think hard about this, you always have to make sure you have a back up plan as things dont always go your way, we had 2 back up schools and still didnt get them. you should contact the LEA asap and check what schools still have places . some lea put their name on the waiting list automatically some you have to ask so again contact the lea asap

Rural catchments can be a bit odd, but are there to make sure that children do have a default school to go to. Where I live, I'm technically in a country parish so my catchment primary is 1.5 miles away down country lanes with no transport between my end of the parish and where the school is. There is another school much closer, but it's technically in the town and therefore not our catchment. It's the same with secondary schools. We drive past our nearest secondary and 1 mile further along the road to get to our catchment secondary.

If you didn't put any other schools on your list, then the LA would have given you a school that had spaces at the end of the allocation process. There could be closer schools, but you chose not to apply to them.

Many thanks for all your posts. There's no nearer school apart from the one we were allocated - it's actually a good school, it's just the distance that's my issue. Strategy now is: (a) find out last distance offered; (b) get on waiting list; (c) consider appeal despite low chance of success :). Despite the LA providing transport I will not be using it - my son is going nowhere without me! Certainly not on a bus. He'll be only 4 and 3 days when he starts. Frankly I'd rather he didn't have to go to school at all yet - seems so young!

Moving across the county line's not an option at the moment - tried many times in the past but very few houses come up and they're out of our price range.

Chimpys- do you know anyone else near you and what their situation is? Where did their children get allocated?

LEAs are not allowed to reject applications just because they come from outside the LEA area - all applications have to be treated on the same footing. Of course, that does not mean that everyone has an equal chance because in every school I've heard of, the tie-breaker for oversubscription is distance. So you won't have been refused a place because you live in a different LEA area, but you have probably been refused a place because there were 30 (or however many places there are) children living closer than you do. If there is a formal catchment area, with different priority for children who are in and out of catchment, that may also have been a factor.

You should already be on the waiting list, but check this.

How many places are there at the school? As you will know if you've been redaing the primary appeals threads, infant class sizes are limited by law to 30 pupils. The number of children that each school will admit is the Published Admission Number (PAN). A school is highly unlikely to raise its PAN simply because parents push for it and, besides, cannot set a PAN that wowuld put more than 30 children in a class. Even if the school did decide to increase its PAN (if, say, there was a shortage of school places across the LEA) it would be filled according to the admissions priorities (or from the waiting list, which is held in admissions priority order), not given to the parents who clamoured loudest for it.

I too don't want to sound harsh, but this is one of the clearest illustrations of why parents should use all their choices on the application form. Naming just one school does not give you any additional priority for it. If you name only one school, it is the LEA that chooses where to offer you a place if the preferred school does not have a place for you. If you name several schools, you at least retain a bit more choice over where your child goes to school.

Don't forget that your child doesn't have to start school until nearly 5.

As far as I know, MrsMicawber, it varies. Some LEAs (to my knowledge) pay for travel passes in areas where children don't already travel free and some will provide a taxi (from a contract company with vetted drivers, not just a passing cab). There's a link on DirectGov to each LEA's website.

Be aware, though, that whatever help is available, it is for the child's travel costs, not the parent's, so however much (or little) of that £24 you can claim, it won't include your fares.

Thanks Panelchair. I know many of you think it was daft to only state 1 choice, but I really had no preference among other schools the LEA could offer. I didn't put just 1 option thinking that would mean we'd definitely get that school - I was fully aware that a place might not be offered there. The other possible schools were of equal preference (or non-preference, if you like) :)

MrsMicawber, my LA has said that transport can be provided - from talking to other mums I understand this to mean there's a bus.

Panelchair, or anyone else, do you have experience of delaying school entry for late summer birthdays? Are schools supportive? My little lad, although he's likely to be the youngest in his year, is already reading fairly fluently and doing sums, but delaying entry would affect his socialising with other children - that's my main concern, not so much the learning, as he's already advanced In several areas. Not so advanced with other stuff though - still struggling with pooing in loo rather than pants!

My only experience is through watching children join my children's classes. The worst situation was in dd1 class when all the children from April onwards were told they had to stay in nursery until Jan. There were 10 and they were referred to by the other children as 'the nursery children'. By yr 2 all seem fairly integrated. The odd child joining here and there due to succcessful appeals, getting in on waiting list etc, seems to go well. They are a novelty for a while and soon find their feet. The school should allow jan or april start (but probably more keen for funding a jan start).

If you think you will move him as soon as you get a nearby place anyway, I personally would home ed (unofficially as he doesn't need to go anywhere) for first two terms, and then send him to offered school, unless a place comes up sooner. It will give him a chance to crack the toilet training, and if you use the time usefully, he might be more confident going in. Also at 4, dd was still falling asleep in car, but by 4.5 it was v rare, so he will hopefully cope with commute better. Some children will think he is younger as starting late, but tell him to tell them about the exciting day trips he's been on. Enjoy him being little!

Chimpysmum - The DirectGov website summarises the law on when children must start school. What I hear on MN suggests that some schools and LEAs are more open to delaying entry than others - some seem to lean on parents to get the children to start in September - but nevertheless those are your legal rights.

For what (little) it's worth, my child was rather like yours - very strong academically before starting school - but started school in January, because at that time the policy was to split the intake between September and January. From the socialisation point of view, my child would have been much happier starting in September (was really keen to start school and hated being left behind at preschool when the September starters went off to school). Of course, things eventually settled down once my child got to school, but my observation as a classroom volunteer was that it took a while for the divide between the September and January starters to close. So, I think your concerns are valid.