Is it possible to appeal against the offered primary VA school?

[Waspie]

We didn't get any of our 4 preferred schools (the catchment school and three closest in distance to the house) and my son has been allocated a place at a VA Church of England school on the other side of town.

On what grounds can the council allocate a VA church school to my son? Can I appeal on the grounds that we are not Church of England?

Obviously we are going to go on the waiting lists for the other 4 schools plus another 2 others in the area but there is no point appealing on any of these as they are over subscribed and the criteria appears to be applied correctly.

Is there anything I can do on religious grounds, or any other, to reject this school?

Any advice? Thanks.

I don't understand all this "very little difference" stuff.

I am sure that the differences between what goes on in terms of religious observance in say a Jewish school and an RC school are pretty big

Non denominational is wrong though I mean I want all religious worship out of schools.

The "little difference" refers to that between many community and many Cof E schools. Some community schools are more "religious" than some Cof E ones!

Surely the fact that there are non-christian state schools is an interesting part of the debate?

Yes I am aware of all that.

I just find it interesting that these conversations always seem to be framed in terms of well it's a christian country / it's probably not even that much religion / all schools have to have a daily act of broadly christian worship / and so really there's no choice and what's the problem anyway. And I wonder how all of the people saying this would feel if their child got allocated a place at a Jewish or Muslim school.I suspect many would not be happy about that, but expect others to put up with a bit (or a lot) of christianity as for many of them it is the default / background religion and what harm can it do.

In reality having a child opt out of religious observation will at the least exclude them from group communal school activities and at most mean that in theory they should not be joining in with half the lessons (eg at DDs school religion "permeates everything they do" and it most definitely does so to opt out of that would mean they were sitting somewhere by themselves for half a day).

Yes, it's the "permeates everything they do" part of organised religion that I particularly dislike and feel should have no part in education. I have no trouble with RE, I used to enjoy learning about world religion when I was at school. I could, as others have pointed out, withdraw my son from assembly but this doesn't address the permeating does it?

SchoolsNightmare - I have read of your problems on other threads and I hope that you manage to resolve things soon. I'm going to get my son put on the waiting list for the 6 schools closest to our house, fingers crossed something will come of it. My son is 5 in November so I can't defer until later in the year.

Waspie I think you are doing the only thing you can and FWIW I strongly suspect that a place will come up for your son at one of the other 6 schools before September. I am sorry you are going through this it is so stressful.

SchoolsNightmare I feel so strongly about so many things I would love to be active / support groups for all of them but it's time/money isn't it!

With the situation with the schools re the land being church owned, and the new free school system, I can't see it changing forever really.

Ooh that's a point though with free schools if they don't have to adhere to NC presumably people can open the first schools without religion!

I also think that if enough people in a school get together and agree to withdraw their children from worship, then the school will have to provide viable alternatives. Also it will reduce the permeating in class. I wouldn't withdraw ours as RC, but at the same time I don't think religion should be forced on people.

I think that people should be encouraged to learn about different world faiths, and athiesm. We discuss them openly with our 5 + 7 yr old. It would be hard to teach UK history without knowing about the reformation for example. It doesn't mean that everyone should have to pray or worship at school though.

I think even free schools will have to hold a daily act of worship!

They can opt out of the NC. But the daily act of worship comes under a different law, and is not part of the NC.

Really, Indigo.

Well that is just stupid.

So a religious group can set up a school and chuck out the NC and teach in accordance with fairly fundamental views and fill the day with worship.

Yet a school set up say by athiests would still have to include a daily act of christian worship?

That is illogical and ridiculous.

If a free school teaches in accordance with fundamental views they are unlikely to get many pupils. Whilst they do have freedom there are some restrictions. They cannot, for example, teach creationism as science. It may, of course, come up in RE.

I am surprised that religion "permeates everything they do" at SardineQueen's school. That is certainly not the case at most CofE schools.

Around here there are a lot of religious schools including non christian.

Once a week the school my DD attend a special school service at the church.
A lot of their lessons are based around bible stories.
They are taught in line with a christian viewpoint.
etc
It is quite usual around here for religious schools (RC, CofE, Jewish) to be quite strong on the religious front.

I can also say around here that religious schools with a fundamental viewpoint would get a lot of students. We have large numbers of people from various religions who are very strict in observance and I am sure that they would be keen to get state money to open schools for their children. At the moment we have quite a lot of Jewish state schools with daily act of worship changed from Christian to Jewish as you can do if you put a good argument to the relevant authorities. However those with stricter views (Christian and Jewish) have private schools for their children to attend where they can be taught in line with their beliefs and TBH a certain amount of separatism. OK let's be honest total separatism. I don't see what there is to stop these groups opening free schools though - there are plenty of students.

Interested to know why a school would not be able to teach creationism if they do not have to adhere to the national curriculum.

Interesting. The special school service seems over the top but probably counts as an assembly. I must admit I struggle to see how maths, reading and writing can be taught in line with a Christian viewpoint. Speaking as a committed, practising Christian, if the church school my eldest attended had been like that I would have complained to the school and, if that didn't produce results, to Ofsted. It seems to me that this behaviour is an attempt to subvert your legal right to withdraw your child from RE by having RE in all lessons. This right also applies to free schools so I would similarly complain if a free school was behaving in this way.

The model funding agreement for free schools and new academies bans "the teaching, as an evidence-based view or theory, of any view or theory that is contrary to established scientific and/or historical evidence and explanations". That is aimed at creationism and similar theories and means a school can lose its funding if it teaches creationism as scientific fact. Note that this is a relatively recent change - the academies set up under the last government did not have this clause in their funding agreements.

I would add that the churches in England generally do not support creationism. Both the CofE and the RC (the two largest sponsors of faith schools) say it should not be taught as scientific fact. Even amongst Christians creationism is very much a minority view.

That is really good news about creationism.

There are other problems though - to do with quite unusual views towards things that go quite strongly counter to mainstream UK culture.

I know that in most of the country the local school is CofE just as what it is but really they are just a community school with assemblies covering off the religious requirement by talking about helping your neighbour or similar.

However this is not the case all around and around here the majority of primary schools are a. religious of some flavour b. voluntary aided (is that what it's called) where all admissions start with religious criteria and they are not required to offer "community" places and c. do what they say on the tin.

I am sure I remember when I was reading the booklet last year that one school specified that it had a % of the day every day for prayer and looking at religious texts etc - my understanding was that as long as they get through the NC and get good results then this sort of thing is not a problem. I can't find it now, the council have changed their website and i can't make head or tail of it!

So I guess for people in different areas it seems outlandish but for people who live in areas where there are already state schools that are very heavy on religion and actually if you weren't that religion you wouldn't be going there it is not so outlandish at all. Stricter groups have had to set up their own school in the past but I see no reason they should not be able to set up free schools. People in strict religious groups tend to live close together so admissions wouldn't be a problem. Thinking specifically of the exclusive brethren and hassidic jewish communities that we have around here.

Oh that's weird.
I just found the document for 2012 and it doesn't give any details of the individual schools - there used to be a long bit about each school talking about ethos and listing the entry criteria. I don't know how people are supposed to manage without that info
Also just found out we already have a free school in the borough! And guess what it's religious.

Well around here the Exclusive Brethern no longer seem to go to state schools, even until 12 when the girls used to leave before, they have their own private school. I do know a localish C of E which is predominantly Muslim. My DCs very Christian C of E, does have Church membership at the top, but that isn't the Church most families go to, so most people are admitted on catchment, and then the final places tend to fill on religious ground. (The grounds are: SEN, Membership of named church, catchment, Christian, Other distance.)
It also has lots of pupils with Atheist parents, and a reasonable number with Jewish, Muslim, Hindu and so on parents. They spent last week studying passover to counter balance Easter being covered before the holiday (the food often results in pupils wanting to convert to Judaism).

Another point of interest is that around here is is not unusual for children who meet the religious criteria to come higher up the list than cared-for children or siblings.

They opened their own school here too, mummytime, when I was young they were in the mainstream schools but I think that with the advance of technology they would really struggle now. I remember the court case when I was a girl to get them exempted from having to take part in classes using a computer so now that they are everywhere and watching videos is a normal part of school it would be impossible. No reason for them not t apply for free school status for the schools that they have made though surely?

I am astonished that free schools also have to have a daily act of worship. So there really cannot be any secular schools in England then?

Waspie- I feel for you. We're atheist, and pretty strongly anti-organised religion tbh; our 3 closest schools are faith schools, complete nightmare.

Is there a list of the things that free schools can and can't do?

I am surprised that they have to have daily worship, to say the least.
I am pleased they are not allowed to teach creationism.
Are they allowed to separate the boys and the girls and teach them different things? for example.

GwendolineMaryLacey - thats a ridiculous thing to say, what option does she have other than to accept the only school they have been offered and then stay on the waiting list for the others. At the end of the day is they get a place elsewhere then if there were people on the waiting list then they would get in anyway!

My DS has got into our first choice state school however he is likely to be going to a local pre-prep instead. I haven't refused the state school place yet as I am entitled to it, who knows what may happen in the next few months, there is a waiting list for the state school but when I get my formal offer letter from the independant school and I pay my deposit then I will let the state school place go.

Its not ideal and I feel a bit uncomfortable holding onto the place but on the otherhand I don't see why I should give up my place for someone else as it is my right to have a state school place available to me.

Ok firstly the op has cleared up that the school is undersubscribed so no waiting list. Fine.

Secondly, if the school is "unacceptable to her" the one could assume that she has no intention of sending her child there. Not ridiculous thanks, just a question.