KS2 Question - is there a vast amount of work/effort between receiving a 4c and a 3a?

[passmyglassplease]

Hi all,

I have been disappointed with the progress my ds has made over this year(6) so I have been putting in a huge amount of effort into doing extra work at home.

We usually work every night for between half hour to 1 hour, I have also excluded TV and PC games except for those relating to revision ie Key Stage 2 bites on the BBC. He is allowed to read as much as he likes and to play audio books during quiet time

So my question is:

Can a child jump from 3a to a 4c in a matter of 6ish weeks with intensive tutoring or is it a bridge too far?

All thoughts greatly appreciated.

In what subject?

There are only 3 weeks left till the SATs test.

Why do you want him to get a level 4?

OP I sympathise with you and understand your wish to get him to a level 4. I have had very similar with my DD over the past few months, in maths; she was a 3b at the start of this academic year.

As Indigo has asked, what subject is he struggling in and are school helping to address the problem too?

Its not a big jump but ti is only a short time to do it. Which subject is it?

Would be possible in Maths, but would be harder if it's English (particularly Writing).

He is a 4c in reading a 3a in maths, english and science.

So far he has just cruised through school as I have taken an overall holistic approach ie if he is happy he will begin to enjoy and look forward to studying! However I am at the stage now where I think he is being lazy, I may be being a bit harsh, but when will he realise that school is for learning,

I am really hoping that intensive study will show him and me that he can do it, if not I really don't know what to do.

He get the maximum of support at school, they have also expressed concerns over his lack of application.

From what I've heard, the Y6 SATS results make a difference to the school, but have little impact on the child. There is another series of exams in the first year at secondary school and those will help the school decide how to stream your son, so those would be the ones I would focus on in your shoes.

I think children need to be told that school is for learning by their parents. Maybe now is the time to start drumming the point in, if you haven't thus far? Sorry, maybe I misunderstood your last post on this point.

Tutoring in maths is easy and science if you know which topics to study. Writing is harder.

Many secondary schools initially set from National Curriculum test results meredeux and the National Curriculum test results are reported to the government and both KS3 and GCSE targets are based on these tests not the internal tests carried out by individual schools .

Science at KS2 isn't based on tests any more, but is based on teacher assessment. So if you are practising KS2 Science papers, this is not needed. The teacher assessments may have already been completed. Most secondary schools do test their pupils at the start of KS3 using CATs and these tests measure "potential" so will help identify children that have underachieved at primary school. HTH

A sample number of schools each year are selected to complete a science test to ensure standards are maintained .crazymum

Didn't know that mrsz - would parents know if their child's school had been selected ?

As a teacher I can say that the chance of your child getting a C in GCSE is significantly reduced unless they achieve a Level 4 in Yr 6. Equally if your child does not reach Level 5 in Year 9 they are going to find it extremely hard to get a GCSE C grade.
It is possible to boost from 3a to 4c in a few weeks, it's only a few more marks that they need to get. Use www.emaths.co.uk to download lots of past papers, focus on the questions in the first half of the paper, as the paper gets progressively harder.

Tbh, in your position I would be less worried about the SATs and more worried about why he is at this level. If you manage to 'cram' him over the next few weeks and he manages to get a level 4, that knowledge won't necessarily be secure. In that case, he will run into problems at secondary school regardless of how much attention that particular school pays to SATS results (it varies.)

I can only speak for my own subject in my own school, but if a pupil came in at level 3 but then proved themselves to be more able that wouldn't hold them back in any way as it would be noticed. However, ime pupils who come in at level 3 are very weak and tend to need a lot of support throughout secondary school. I agree that they are highly unlikely to get a C at GCSE. However, I have also seen lots of pupils who came in on a low level 4, perhaps acheived as a result of cramming, need similar levels of support.

The levels don't magically lead to certain GCSE grades - it all depends on WHY that child got a particular level in the first place.

As a teacher I can say that the chance of your child getting a C in GCSE is significantly reduced unless they achieve a Level 4 in Yr 6.

Do you really think that a few weeks of boosting from a 3a to 4c is going to make a "significant" difference to the probability of this child getting a C at GCSE?
Really?

Because that sounds like utter crap to me.

Sunscorch that's the way it goes. They are statistically more likely to get a C if they have a level 4. Teachers see children in terms of high, middle & low ability & the whole system of 'levels' encourages this & can be reductive.

If you boost your child to a level 3C at KS1 (and iny opinion most children can reach this level with help if needed) the teachers will be expecting a level 5 in KS2 in order to meet expectations. This has the knock on effect of a grade C plus being statistically more likely at GCSE. It's possible to play the system if you know what the school are looking for. It seems ridiculous to me.

Yes but you're not 'playing the system' if the child isn't 'really' that level and can't produce that level of work consistently once the SATs are over. You may succeed in higher targets being generated but that won't help your child if their 'true' level is a lower one. Every year I get a class of Year 7s, some of whom acheived a level 5 in English at KS2 but who never produce anything approaching that level during Year 7 (even allowing for the differences between a Y6 level 5 and a Y7 level 5).

It's really not helpful coaching pupils to get levels that are not a true indication of their knowledge and understanding. That's not to say you shouldn't try and get them to improve, obviously, but I would focus on general skills rather than specifically coaching them with an eye to the SATs.

Without knowing the OP's son, it is impossible to know whether he is still a level 3 due to lack of applicaition or serious difficulties.

Whilst this is the view: As a teacher I can say that the chance of your child getting a C in GCSE is significantly reduced unless they achieve a Level 4 in Yr 6. I am going to do all I can to help my child do as well as they can. Higher targets early on often mean the teachers, in a large class, will do all they can to get your child to that 'higher target' rather than one that is 'average' etc. They have to do so because of 'value added'.

I take your point Lecce but as I see it 'long term coaching' can actually make them a 'true' level 3c at KS1 at reading for example. You can work through a checklist as a parent and effectively impart every objective one at a time, making sure that each has been understood and absorbed.

My point is for a child with an average intellect (whatever that means) with enough exposure to the right material a 3C at KS1 is perfectly possible.

Those Y7s coming up you mention at level 5 put you under pressure to make sure they make the accepted minimum progress. They are at an advantage are they not? They are already seen as the high ability group which again gives them a proven psychological advantage over the others in term of ultimate result.

If those that came up at level 3 or 4 are at a level 5 by the end of the year it's ok, they've done enough to make the powers-that-be happy. There's going to be a lot of hand wringing about those under achieving level 5s with perhaps extra resources going their way to make sure expected progress is made?

Also I thought the level at the end of KS1 was not only on the test but on continuous assessment throughout the year?

Meant those Y7s who achieved a level 5 at the end of KS2 put you under pressure to make sure they make accepted progress. Sorry.

Also meant the expectations would not be so high for those who received level 3 or 4 at the end of KS2 so the level 5s (at that point) were already at an advantage even if they were not a 'true' level 5.

I take your point Lecce but as I see it 'long term coaching' can actually make them a 'true' level 3c at KS1 at reading for example.

Completely agree with that - I wasn't trying to say that parents shouldn't help their dc improve . I was referring to the OP - it is too late for 'long-term coaching' in her situation. Well, not to late if it carries on after the SATs but I would have a longer -term goal in the OP's position that just wanting him to be a 4C in a few weeks time. Tbf, OP probably has got that longer term goal anyway...

Those Y7s coming up you mention at level 5 put you under pressure to make sure they make the accepted minimum progress. They are at an advantage are they not? They are already seen as the high ability group which again gives them a proven psychological advantage over the others in term of ultimate result.

Not sure about that. I am put under pressure and it is very, very hard to push children to a level 6 when their basic literacy skills are not there. That is when the pressure becomes ridiculous. Before anyone starts, I went into teaching to help pupils reach their full potential and fully expect to work hard to do so. It's just that, imo, SATs levels that have been reached by coaching, doing lots of past papers at the expense of the rest of the curriculum etc can cause serious problems to a child's education.

It is not my experience that those children I spoke of have a psychological advantage over others. More often, they have become disillusioned about school having spent a year talking only about what level they are at the expense of more holistic discussions about their progress:

"Oh, you've written a story. Not enough connectives, level 4 , not good enough," type discussions.

I'm generalising of course, not for a moment suggesting all Y6 teachers are like this .

I have had Y7s tell me confidently that the definition of a paragraph is that it is 6 lines of writing (because that is how big the answer boxes are on the SATs paper, so that is what they have been told.). When I correct them, their confidence dives (although I obviously don't do so insensitively) because the trust that they had in their previous teacher is shaken. They tend to think they 'are' a level 5 and many, not all, are disinclined to work harder when they find they are not really as good as they thought they were. They can start to distrust teachers.

I am not saying this happens in all schools when preparing for Y6 SATs but it CAN happen and, sometimes, when the most pressure is heaped on to acheive certain levels, the quality of teaching does not rise because it tends to lead to 'teaching to the test'.

But, of course, parents taking a keen interest in their dc's education is a fabulous thing and cetainly to be encouraged - that's not the problem at all.

You sound very committed, Lecce that shines through and its really heart-warming.

To turn back to those level 5s at KS2 - you are trying, as you say, really, really hard to get them to a level 6. You won't, because of the system, be trying really, really hard to push the level 3s or 4s to level 6. Not because you don't care but because you don't need to. It's not seen as realistic target for these lesser men. The system is so geared towards giving these level 5 children the advantage is it not? Whether their current level of attainment is there or not is besides the point.

You sound like a good teacher and I am sure you are explaining to the hallowed level 5s what they need to do to improve to make expected progress. You have to if you are to be seen as a skilled teacher in the eyes of the school and Ofsted etc.

I take your point that the level 5s feel disillusioned and unhappy but the fact remains they are more likely to end Y7 at a higher level than others that came up with a level 3 or 4 are they not?

The paragraph comment is shocking and worrying. Is our system really that reductive and flawed?

To turn back to those level 5s at KS2 - you are trying, as you say, really, really hard to get them to a level 6. You won't, because of the system, be trying really, really hard to push the level 3s or 4s to level 6. Not because you don't care but because you don't need to

I find those comments hugely insulting, Cortina.

It's not that unusual for a pupil to come in on a level 4 and make it to a level 6 by the end of Y9. Level 3 pupils, ime, need help with basic literacy skills, not pushing to a level 6.

"As a teacher I can say that the chance of your child getting a C in GCSE is significantly reduced unless they achieve a Level 4 in Yr 6"

This isn't "the view". It's a gross misunderstanding and misapplication of a statistical analysis.

Feenie - I was talking about the context of the post I was replying to not more generally - all the effort going in to make sure this group made expected progress & what was going on in that particular classroom.

Sunscorch - I hope you're right & I am pleased & encouraged you do see this. Yet if you look on TES you do see that sort of reductive approach and I fear this view is not uncommon.

What lecce said a few posts back. I don't think you are doing your child any good at all to 'inflate' a SATs mark, if he isn't actually working at this level. It's not a certificate they take through life, like a GCSE, it's supposed to be an indication of the level they are actually working at.

Hi all,

I am here to update this thread as this week the SATS scores are available. I have spoken to the SENCO at DS's school and they have left a message to say that he had achieved a level 4 in all subjects and that they are very pleased for him, as am I.

However by investigating further the mystery of why my DS was not doing as well as I had expected particularly in literacy, we were able to discover with the help of an Educational Psychologist that he actually suffers from dyspraxia, which would explain a lot about the problems he has.

I am very greatful to the school for listening to me and getting my son the support he needs, I only wish we had discovered it earlier!

Thanks for all the support and advice from yourselves, once again mumsnet triumphs.