help regarding appeal?

[Loobylou8888]

hi everyone! just joined to this site and im wondering if anyone has or is going through the same issue as myself. My daughter has attended her nursery for 2years and i applied for her a place in the primary part of the school. Have recieved the letter this week with the most heartbreaking news.... she has not been accepted.

Granted this is a faith school and as of yet i have not had my daughter baptised as i have just had my son and i was planning on a joint batisim. I know that the school accept pupils that are not of any religion as my nephew goes to the same school and he is not baptised and a few other pupils i know are not either. My sister had this worry last year when she applied and she spoke to a teacher who said that it didnt just rely on that for entry.

I have already been on the phone to the local admission place and the person i spoke to said that she missed out on grounds of religion, when i mentioned all of the above he agreed and said that the last pupil that was granted a place was not baptised either but lived closer to the school than i do. now i know that majority of children in the nursery that would of applied for that place dont actually live on the same "estate" as such as what i do.
I literally live a 3 min straight line walk to the school.

The school they have offered my daughter a place is litrally round the corner to the school i wanted but after reading the latest ofsted report which was published yesterday i have serious doubts over accepting the place as report pretty much states that majority of children are below average. I know all mothers are biased when it comes to their children but my daughter is extreamly clever for her age even her nursery teachers comment that shes a bright little girl, and i feel that if i accept the place at the other school my daughter will not be given the best oppertunities to progress aswell as possible.

Since finding out both my daughter and myself have been devestated, she doesnt want to leave her friends after 2 years. Im completly at loss as what to do, would appealing help? The school is still on easter holidays and does not reopen untill monday so i feel like a sitting duck as i cant speak to anyone there untill then. Any help or advice would seriously be greatful as seeing my daughter upset has resulted in me running off to the bathroom for a cry every 5 min. Also if i requested would the school be able to prove to me that indeed the last entrant to the school lived closer. I know that even still she may not of been accepted but it would help if they could actually show me evidence for this.

Thanks in advance :)

Not sure about seeing the evidence but their priority criteria sounds normal :(

Most faith schools prioritise faith - even if they take non religious children, they will only get in after the faith applicants. Within categories its normal for places to be allocated by distance. My SIL has this problem, she has 2 kids in a RC school and lives opposite but not baptised. I however have a dd who is baptised and live 8 miles away. The reality is i can get my dd in her school before she can get her 3rd son as we are RC and she isnt!

Is this an infant class size appeal i.e. are classes made up of 30, 60 or 90 etc Appealing will only help if there has been an error e.g your distance was wrong - otherwise no.

If less than 30, you can appeal but you have to show your reasons for attending school outweigh the schools reasons for not admitting. The reality is sadly that you have probable gone is a very low category whereas if baptised (especially as you live near) you would have def got place.

Maybe you should try get your dd baptised asap as you will likely go near the top of the waiting list?

To add:

You could also go on the waiting lists for any other schools you like and have a good chance of getting in. However if it were me, given you live so close, i would be booking a baptism asap!

Thank you for replying. Letter does state infant class size, how would i find out whether an error was made eg distance? Its so frustrating obviously everyone wants the best for their child and you feel helpless when you cant really do much to change the decision. It also angers me at the fact that majority of the kids in her nursery who have also applied, yes they may be baptised but their mothers are the ones who hardly send their kids to nursery, dont hand their homeworks in, etc.

Im looking into the whole baptism asap thing. I did however want to give my daughter the option to decide what way she went with religion when she was at an age to fully understand everything but if baptism is the only way to help bump her up on a waiting list it is something i am willing to do to try and get her the best education possible. I just feel completly at fault that i never done it sooner and have ruined her chance for that school.

just check there is no church attendance or other such thing in their criteria. Ask the school what your position would be if you got her baptised. I would expect you to go right near the top if the school just says 'baptised RC in parish' for example. If you do decide to do this, you should try do it asap as people will be rejecting and accepting places over the n ext few weeks and you will want to be at the top when they do! Not sure how easy it is with your church though?

its very difficult to find out if error was made. However distance looks irrelevant - you lost out on religion so likely it never made it our of the RC categories so distance doesnt look like it even came into it. For e.g this is my DD RC school cfriteria:

1- RC in care
2- RC in parish
3- RC siblings not in parish
4-Other religion in care
5-Other religion with siblings
6-Other religion
7-Distance

Last year dds school filled on the 2nd category!

You need to check that your application was considered correctly - placed in the right category, distance from home to school was measured correctly etc. Your LEA should be able to tell you the distance at which the last place was awarded in each category, including yours.

Most C of E and Catholic schools tend to prioritise church attendance. Baptism tends to be more relevant for Catholic schools. A late baptism now may or may not help move you up the waiting list, depending on whether the criteria are about baptism alone or baptism + church attendance.

As this would be an infant class size, the only winnable grounds for appeal are

• an error which has deprived your child of a place
• admission arrangements which are not in accordance with the law or the admissions code or
• the refusal to offer a place was so unreasonable that it can't be allowed to stand.

It doesn't sound to me as if you have any strong grounds for appeal.

Your child being bright or the other pupils at the allocated school being 'below average' are certainly not grounds for appeal. Academic ability is not part of the oversubscription criteria and if you try to appeal on the basis that your child is too bright to go to the allocated school, it'll carry no weight at all. (Besides, the fact that the allocated school takes children who start with below average attainment does not mean that those children don't receive a good education or that your child could not thrive there).

Lastly, attending the nursery does not give priority for admission to the school (and, frankly, I wish this was more widely understood).

Don't bank on winning your appeal. Check the admissions criteria to see whether baptising your child will move her up the waiting list. Don't bank on the waiting list either - look for other schools that you would be willing to accept if you're determined that your child won't go to the allocated school.

This is what it states on schools website regarding admissions if you could take a look and give me you opinion please :) in order on preference for admission

1.Catholic Children who are Looked after Children (Children in the care of the Local Authority).
2.Catholic Children whose home address is within the parish boundaries of St Mary?s Parish
3.Catholic Children whose home address is outside of the parish boundaries of St Mary?s Parish, but who regularly worship in the Church of St Mary?s Parish
4.Catholic Children whose home address is outside of the parish boundaries of St Mary?s Parish with a brother or sister already attending the school at the time of admission
5.Catholic Children whose home address is outside of the parish boundaries of St Mary?s Parish who do not have a brother or sister already attending the school at the time of admission
6.Non-Catholic Children who are Looked after Children (Children in the care of the Local Authority)
7.Children of other Christian denominations who have a brother or sister already attending the school at the time of admission.
8.Children of other Faith traditions who have a brother or sister already attending the school at the time of admission
9.Other children who have a brother or sister at the school
10.Children of other Christian denominations who do not have a brother or sister at the school
11.Children of other Faith traditions who do not have a brother or sister at the school
12.Other children.

untill my dd is baptised she looks to be seriously at the bottom of that list :(
how does the whole waiting list thing work. If she does not get in for this year, but does get baptised is it a case of having to wait untill a child leaves the school before they accept her? regarding the whole 30 pupils thing, do the allocated the whole 30 spaces straight off? Im at serious doubt about anyone decining the schools offer as i have just found out that last year there was 80 odd applicants for the 30 places. I was only just recently made aware that even her attending their nursery for 2year has no single input into her getting accepted either :(

yes you look to be category 12 as your child is not of any faith currently? You would have been category 2 if baptised :(

All 30 places are allocated straight away. It may seem the school got 80 places but if you had the option of 3 schools for example, probably not all of those are 1st choice so prob got schools elsewhere. Our LEA booklet shows how many of each choice applied to each school last year, does yours? DD school received 120 applications for 60 places but in reality only 75 were first choice.

Best bet is going on waiting list, visit allocated school and go on waiting lists of other schools. If she stays not baptised you will be unlikely to get a place and very unlikely to get future siblings in even if she does get in :(

Thanks panelchair.

Im going to ring around to see if baptism will help in moving her up waiting list even if list is a long shot. The offered school didnt seem too bad regarding 2009 ofsted it was when i noticed the march 2012 report was published yesterday and seems to of went downhill compared to what was published in previous report. Snipit for last months report.....

The school is not good because pupils make satisfactory rather than good progress and some pupils do not reach nationally expected levels in writing and mathematics, despite much improved progress recently. There is some unevenness in the way teachers promote pupils? writing and mathematical skills.

Do you live in the parish? You say you live nearby but are you in the parish? Do the admissions criteria go on to define what they mean by a "Catholic child" (it's soften in the small print of the admissions booklet)? It might be baptism alone but it might also be baptism before a certain age and/or church attendance. That is going to be crucial to whether getting your child baptised now will make any difference to your place on the waiting list.

Waiting lists are held in the same order as the admissions priorities. As children leave, their places are taken by children from the waiting list.

Where children are admitted through successful appeals, they will be admitted in addition to the children already in the class (so might be the 31st or 32nd child) so the school would wait for the class size to drop below 30 again before it offered any more places from the waiting list.

All 30 places should have been offered by now. Schools should not hold a place or two empty in case of successful appeals, but some do.

The ofsted inspections are rumoured to have become much stricter since jan 2012, so don't rely too much on the March 2012 one, especially if your first choice had an ofsted inspection last year or longer ago, they may be in for a shock when they are revisited.

Go and look round for the school, see what you think and certainly accept it while your position re baptism and waiting lists is clarified.

If the person on the phone was correct and the last person admitted was in the same category as you, then you need to find out the exact distances involved, as them how many meters they are from the school, compared to how far you are, to make sure that there isn't a mistake. If they were in the same category 12 as you then it means that if baptising will put her up to category 2, she should be easily top of the waiting list unless a Catholic family move closer than you before a space is available.

missed the bit about distance in your post!

I dont understand, did you miss out on distance or religion?

If religion then it would seem if never made it to cat 12 so there could currently be many above you on the list

if distance, then it did make to cat 12 but you just lost out - in which case you may be near the top

The thing is, if you go to appeal, might they not wonder why you haven't had your child baptised before now? Presumably it's been 4 years, and usually Catholics do so as a matter of course as babies? So, waiting a number of years for a potential sibling and a joint baptism might not impress them. Ditto a "rushed" baptism now might look as though you're only doing it for a school place.

i agree but here in lancs there is no reference in the admissions criteria of lots of the rc schools ive researched that mention age of baptism etc. Maybe very oversubscribed schools do this? I got dd1 and dd2 baptised together when dd1 was age 3 and the church never said anything, nor did school. In fact dd's school encouraged those who hadnt been baptised, to do it prior to submitting form in order to gain place (only if RC family anyway of course)

3duracellbunnies thank you for posting. First choice school had last ofsted inspection in 2009 but has an interim assesment statment published Jan 2012 stating that because the 2009 inspection good that those schools now do not get inspected as often. I still however will be going to have a look at the school she has been offered, just when you see it on the report about how despite the recent progress some children are still below average, sends you into more of a depression :(

The man mentioned both faith and distance during phone conversation. Said that the child that recieved the last place also wasnt baptised but lived closer. Im wondering if i ask regarding the last childs distance to my own daughters do they have to tell me? am i within my rights of knowing the exact difference.

If you hang on for a place from the waiting list, then no, probably baptism isn't a huge issue. The child above you wasn't baptised either, and you're next on the list.
However, if you go to appeal, and state a massive desire to have your dd educated within the faith and that only a Catholic school will do, it's then that your baptism status might be questioned.

the child may not be baptised but could they be of other faith - so cat 10 or 11?

theres little you can do til you check with lea but hope you get things sorted! :)

thanks clam

As i said a few posts up i didnt really want to get her baptised untill she had the understanding to be able to make her own decision regarding it. I know that probly wont make sence considering shes been at a RC nursery and that i applied for a RC school but i didnt believe in forcing her into that religion. However since goin to the RC nursery shes starting to grasp small aspects of religion and showing an interest. I also wanted to give my son that chance but by the looks of it if i have to go through same issues with him in 4yrs time as what i am now to help with his school admission its a decision im going to have to go with

Well, I'm not RC, but in the CofE, baptism is the parents' choice for their child and it's the confirmation which takes place at an older age where the child decides for themselves to become communicant members of the church.

clam ive just re-read my last post and i seriously hope that didnt come across to you as though i was being snotty by saying i had mentioned above about letting the kids decide. Im sorry if it did though as wasnt intended to be.

Im also not a RC i was baptised C of E, my mam let me decide what i wanted to do religion wise aswell and i decided against choosing a religion, but that was just my belief. The school situation is not only frustrating with the religion side of things but also the fact its the best school in our area, and that just because i didnt get her baptised she missed out and now has to go to a school that is no where near as good. :(

No, don't worry, I didn't think you were being snotty!

So you're not RC yourself? And presumably not a church-goer? I mean, I don't know but can you just rock up to a RC church and ask them to baptise your child (quick) just so you can get a place at a good school?

oh lou the school may be fine! just because ofsted says one thing don't rule it out. Easier said than done i know!

My dds school may be grade 1 but i hate loads of things about it! Ofsted is really box ticking and you really do need to go visit the school, get a feel for it, meet the parents etc.

In hindsight i'm not sure i would have put dd in her school, regardless of its ofsted rating but as a first time parent 3 years ago, we all tend to follow ofsted :)

Given half the chance i'd have chosen a good solid local school were parents had nice things to say about it. If you visited the playground of dds school you would hear loads of mums moaning about this and that and people are always complaining - me included! Great on paper doesnt necessarily mean its the best school for your dd- go see a few to compare - it'll give you a lot of insight if nothing else!

Its good its local - you may find others in preschool are in the same position!

i think RC church just need 1 parent to be RC - i'm not but my DH is and neither of us went to church - we do now to support dd!

nope not RC. Thats what i was wondering too :s just dont know if it'll be too little too late kind of thing. especially for admissions for this year. may help on waiting list?? Its so frustrating because the school is still on easter holidays so cant speak to anyone there untill monday and admission place said i had to get appeal form from the school if i was wanting to appeal as with it being a voluntary aided school they deal with their own admissions.

Im going to ring admission place again (although i can bet they wont be pleased im on the phone AGAIN :) ) and ask them if they can be of any more help with it. They try and baffle you with fancy words and terms that by the time you get off the phone you can hardly work out what the conversation was actually about!!. Shall be sat with a pen and bit paper writing things down tomorrow may even have to get them to dumb down what their saying so i can take it all in haha

It is hard, we did get ours baptised (though the second two were over 6 months as I was ill), we are going to encourage them to do first communion (yr 3), but beyond that it will be up to them for confirmation. We are at county school anyway so not got that pressure.

I would push them for which category the last child accepted was in, as pp says it could be that they were just above you in other faiths. If they were in same category as you, do ask them to double check distances, they won't tell you who it is or where they live (obviously); but mistakes can happen, and check the distance they have for you, does it sound right. You need to remember that it is straight line distance, not walking.

Do look at value added for the other school, and also visit and ask them how they support those children who are further ahead, just because they don't get some children up to nat ave, doesn't mean that some don't thrive there. If the school was in special measures it would be worse, many satisfactory schools serve the majority of the pupils well in most areas. You may need to put in a bit more support at home, but it sounds as if you are doing that already.