so how bad is it if a Y1 child (nearly 6) can't write an intelligible sentence?

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Been getting the message from school that DS (6 next month) is struggling for some time, particularly with writing. We have a rash of appointments with various people, including a paed on Thursday - partly my reason for posting.

I got a good look at his topic and English books today and they are mainly a jumble of letters with really only the odd word or sentence that I can actually decipher. Whole words done in mirror writing.

Is that normal or even normal-ish? I wouldn't expect Pride and Prejudice but I would have thought normal expectations would be for a 6 year old to be able to write a sentence or two by now. In general he's an articulate little boy with good general knowledge and lively interest in all and sundry. Reading is above average for his class (ORT level 7), maths he could apparently do if he'd concentrate but since he doesn't he can't. Social skills, behaviour, concentration all a bit wobbly hence the many appointments.

Am wondering whether to take said books to the paed on Thursday as additional evidence of our concerns but would be useful to have a sense of whether she'll think I am expecting too much of him! Many thanks.

Lefty?

my ds2 is also5 (6 in June) and cannot write a sentence. he finds reading a struggle. he is a very confident boy and outgoing, he will talk and play with anyone. he is left handed but his writing is very neat. he just can't compose a sentence. his teacher thinks he has some sort of special needs but doesn't know what so I'm going to take him to the gp and see if they can referr us for some help. he is very active and attends football, rugby, gymnastics and swimming clubs!! I have wondered if he is over active or it is just that he doesn't have time for reading and writing he would rather be outside playing. as he is very good at sports and drawing so I wonder if that's just where his talents will lie.

his brother was able to read fluently by this stage and by year 2 was writing his own stories. however he was painfully shy and unsociable, and hated any type of physical activity. so i have two very completely different children and try not to worry about it really. he is happy and if he takes longer to get to grips with it so be it.

I do intervention with Y1 in the afternoons and the expectation would be that by the end of Y1 they would be a level 1A.

This means they could write a legible paragraph with a capital letter, finger spaces and full stops and some adjectives. They might also be using speech marks. Some children would be able to write a couple of pages of good clear writing.

thanks for the advice! No, not lefty but took some time to develop any hand preference and I'm still not convinced he has it licked.

Blimey - unless something amazing happens he won't be writing a paragraph by the end of term! Useful to know I am not just paranoid, thank you.

You could search for mrz's fine motor stuff on here. And look up things like 'right from the start' by Teodorescu and Ali.

Ds didn't really establish hand pref for honks. And even now at 10 there are some things that he does the other way round. His writing is now beautiful though.

DS2 is 6 and in YR1 - there is no way he will be able to write a paragraph as described further up this thread!

He is predominately a leftie, although only decided that really within the last 9 months, and will still occasionally swap over depending on what he is doing.

His reading is way above average, and his maths is ok.

I'm just encouraging him to write as much as possible, and also doing things to increase fine motor skills.

My dd is 5 (6 at the end of June) there's no way she could write a sentence on her own, she can write the odd word and can write if you tell her what letter to write. Definitely not on her own. I think your expecting too much from him !!

How many sentences constitute a paragraph?
My y1 is considered average and can write 2 or 3 sentences in a go with coaxing from his lovely teacher His formation is usually correct and his spelling is phonetic. He can spell some reception key words (and, then, in etc) , uses capital letters for the start of a sentence (but not for proper nouns despite knowing names start with capital letters) and uses spaces and full stops. He doesn't use commas or speech marks but knows what they are.

He is expected to be a high 1b or low 1a at the end of y1.

I have looked at work on his classroom wall (it's a y1/2 class) and the variation is huge in terms of quantity, quality, spelling, neatness etc.

Does your son have a writing target? My children have had targets in y1 like making sure they always use spaces or making sure long letters like g go under the line. I like knowing what his current target is so that when I witness it I can praise him.

DS has just turned 7 (Y2), wouldn't write anything much at home and I haven't made him. At school I have seen one or two pieces of his writing. It is not more than 1-2 paragraphs, he may use capital letter and full stop, but not always. There is now way he would be using speech marks or write a couple of pages!

His teacher sometimes told me that DS has done some good writing (when she sat him next to her!) I assume he is somewhat behind but our school doesn't give assessment information to parents, so I don't know.

This year I focused on his maths and next year I will have to see how I can support his English. DS will change school, so I hope the junior school will share information and make it easier to support him.

I do think that 4 was way too early to start reading writing and formal maths for my DS. He wasn't ready and he didn't want to do it - still doesn't!

My DS (6 next saturday) is having similar issues. His reading is fabulous and he has a fantastic grasp on numbers/maths but his handwriting is nearly unintelligible, and he says his hand hurts after just a couple of sentences. He's a righty but only made that choice properly a few weeks ago

I'm hoping it just means they all develop at different times with different things. He's has 1A's all round so I'm not concerned academically, just wish his writing was a bit better!

"This means they could write a legible paragraph with a capital letter, finger spaces and full stops and some adjectives. They might also be using speech marks. Some children would be able to write a couple of pages of good clear writing"

REALLY? I don't think that is at all reasonable to expect from children at the end of year 1! I really don't understand why we have these ridiculous targets and yet our education system is so crap generally.

Yes, I do think writing a couple of pages using speech marks and adjectives can only be expected from very few at the end of Y1. I know one boy who would have done that, but that's it. Oh, and another (August born) who just started to read and write at the end of Y1 and he seems to be catching up now at the end of Y2, so there is a huge variation. But then, I am not a primary teacher who has seen lots of writing from little ones. I have only seen what's displayed at my DS's school.

However, my DS (just 7) is quite articulate and not shy to chat to anyone. So, I think if his language is good then I didn't really want to push his writing at age 5 or 6 if he doesn't want to do it. But now at 7 I think its time to see where he really is. Besides, DS is bilingual and I don't speak English to him - that makes it all a bit more problematic.

DS turned 6 in November, and he can write full sentences but still writes some letters mirror and will obviously make some spelling mistakes especially where there are silent 'e'. Capital letters are quite random and use of full stop occasional! The range in his class is remarkable. Some children will write full full pages in beautiful handwriting, making sense and very legible, and other kids are struggling to write single words.

Wouldn't it have to do with your DD being a bit younger?

I think the key is not to panic, I think it's within the normal range, but work on a plan and work together with the school to help her out a bit more.

Not trying to diagnose, but could he be dyslexic? There's meant to be a link betweenit and ambidexterity. I didn't have a dominant hand until 6 or 7 and dyslexia was always something dm though I probably had.

Can any of these children compose a sentence if the letters are wooden and they are creating words on the kitchen table?

I am not saying it is reasonable but the Government have made the targets sooo high that the teachers are push push pushing to make these children hit those targets!

Now we are in the summer term and I have 12 new children to work with. The previous 12 could all write independently with capital letters, full stops and finger spaces and an adjective so they have moved back to the classroom and do not work with me anymore.

One of the teachers said that finger space teaching is one of my strengths!!

thank you everyone! A useful spread of views ahead of our appointment tomorrow - which I hasten to add isn't mainly about his ability to handwrite :)
Interestingly DH had a look and doesn't think he wrote as well at DS's age as DS is now, and he hasn't done so badly academically. I think he may be exaggerating a bit but expectations probably are very different now from the 70s, and maybe not in all kids' favour.
Thanks again!

Not trying to stealth boast at all, but my DD is in reception (aged 5) and can quite easily write full sentences, with some attempts at punctuation such as full stops.
Capitals are still a bit random, as is spelling, but correct phonetically, and based on this and the fact that although she's bright (I know MN HATES this word ), she's certainly not exceptional, then yes I would be quite concerned about your son's progress.
I haven't got a clue what 1A etc means, as we've never been told any levels like this so far, but knowing that dd is in the year below and not gifted, then I would expect more progress a whole year later.
I could be completely wrong, but I would be chasing this up. It could simply be a fine motor skill that needs work or something?

My dd is 6yo and in yr 1 and can write a few words together which may or may not make sense!!! I wouldn't be too worried tbh but then I am def in the camp that kids in this country are pushed way too hard too young and would prefer a more european approach were its mostly play based til they are 7yo!!!

Dd2 is 6 (just turned 6) she can write a sentence and a small paragraph but it doesn't always make sense. She has sn's (Autism) but i was told she is working at the top end for her age (now i'm not sure how true that is), i dont think she can use speach marks but can use capital letters at the begining of a sentence (when she can be bothered). I'm not sure what level she is working at. Her reading is level 6 ORT but due to her Autism her understanding is not always up to the level she is reading. I was told by her teacher that its normal for a 6 year old to write a sentence that may be a bit muddled up and not understandable.

Deffently take his work with you to show the paed, she what they think about it, try not to worry too much, i think at that age alot of them are working at different levels, most will catch up.

My DD (5) is going for an OT assessment for hypermobility/hyperextension in her fingers. She loves to write but gets a sore hand from trying to grip the pencil in a tripod grip. Left to her own devices she can control her pencil very well if it doesn't involve her index finger, i.e she holds her pencil between her thumb and middle finger and the index finger just floats about. When she uses a tripod grip her thumb bends backwards so she finds it hard to control the pressure.

DS(15) has awful penmanship and we are now realising that he probably has the same issues as DD, but they were never picked up during primary school. However, both DS and DD enjoy writing and DD can write a few sentences that make sense with capital letters etc. Funnily enough both have high reading ages which I think helps/helped them in recognising sentence formation.

OP - my DS is now 7 and in Yr 1/Yr 2 he couldn't write a sentence at all. His writing was terrible - one long row of letters, all formed incorrectly with not a single space between 'words'.

He tanked with his SATS and at the time someone on here told me I should be really worried about dyslexia etc. However, he writes pretty well now - yes he still misses capitals etc but it is well formed, small and clear.

In my sons case, I agree with gabsid that he was just not ready to start writing until recently - 4 is very early for some children, especially boys and I don't think it is fair to push them too hard until they are ready.

My DS is 6.0 and on the same reading level as your DS (ORT level 7). In terms of his writing, he won't be writing anything particularly profound but he could write this sort of thing himself without help (I think his writing skills are below average but not needing intervention and the spellings below are his own):

1. I love you
2. My sister is a poo
3. I went swiming

So the sentences are simple (otherwise concentration is lost!) with lots of phonetic spellings mixed with irregular words which he has learnt to spell. All the letters will be formed correctly and there will be finger spaces. Something he used to do which creates a jumble of letters is when he ran out of space where he wanted to write, he would just carry on writing above or around the word, backwords or forwards, just wherever he could fit it. He would not use the next line!

Greygardens, I really don't feel it's fair to the op to put forward advice based solely on what your own child can do. What can the rest of the class do? Is their writing better or worse than your dd''s?

From my experience there tends to be a lot of variation in writing ability in yr 1. You only have to look at class work on the walls during parents evening to observe this.

My own ds, just turned 6, struggles with writing. His grip still looks awkward and he needs lots of encouragement. Yet he is in top set for literacy i think cos of his reading and comprehension skills. The mechanics of the writing will come in time.

Have a look at the girls' writing too, op, most of them will be way ahead of the boys in terms of letter formation and content.

I would be guided by the teacher if I were you and ask how u can help him to improve.

Curly, I totally get your point, as I said I wasn't trying to boast about dd's abilities (I genuinely don't know how well she is doing, class wise, average wise, anything), it was more a response to the OP asking if she should be concerned.

She asked if it was normal or normal-ish, and imo it would be a cause for slight concern. Based on a sample of one in reception, admittedly. But I don't suppose that is very helpful. I should have said if it was my child, then I probably would be concerned.

I really just posted to explain that this is how my dd is doing in reception, and therefore I would expect better from year one, but I must admit I don't know what the rest of the class can do. Sorry if an unhelpful post, I will bow out.