Primary school catchment area doesn't match preschool catchment area!

[Dawnybabe]

Does anyone else have a problem like ours?

Our very popular primary school has a very popular preschool right next door. The preschool is privately run and has loads of kids on its books that live miles away but the parents want their kids in there. The primary school foundation class is very small and places are limited and half the preschool kids that have spent the last two years getting to know each other haven't got in because they're not in the catchment area for the primary school.

Obviously the preschool being privately run can accept who they like but some parents were under the impression that if they were in the preschool they stood a better chance of getting into the primary school. Trouble is the preschool can take about forty kids from anywhere, over a two year age range, and the primary school foundation class has about 10 places limited to catchment area. So obviously not everyone is going to get a place.

The preschool people say parents are aware of this situation, but I don't think a lot of them are. I know the preschool has to make money and therefore take whoever they can get but would it be a good idea to set some sort of catchment boundary so that not quite so many parents come from miles away to then have to send their kids to their local primary anyway where they don't know anyone?

Is there any kind of solution to this? Obviously all the children end up with a school place somewhere, so are the preschools just not suitable for their primary school catchment areas?

Just interested to know what people think. Is there generally a problem with getting children from preschool to local primary?

By the way this doesn't affect me as we live near the school and my three are there already. Got friends in this predicament though.

We have a preschool which effectively "rents" a room from the school but is completely seperate. So attendance at preschool is no guarantee of a place in primary, indeed there are few schools where this is the case. It is the parents choice to send their child to a specific preschool, they should check out the admissions criteria for the primary schools before making assumptions!

I don't really see what the problem is. As the preschool is private, it can presumably do whatever it likes. Also, it makes no difference to Reception children in my experience - they just get on with it and 90% of them have new friends within a week of starting school regardless of whether they knew people when they started. If the parents aren't reading the admissions policies properly, I guess that's their look out.

IN my area there is rarely a connection in admissions terms between primary and the attached pre-school. In fact, I think it was made clear on paper at the time of joining preschool that it gave you no special dibs on places at the school. If your preschool doesn't make it clear at the outset, then perhaps that would be a good place to start?

Private institutions are never going to sign up to a catchment boundary IMHO because they would effectively be turning away customers.

my dd is in a RC school, out of parish and in Y1. DD2 is in the attached pre school. The pre school takes 50 but the school takes 60. However going to pre school doesn't give priority to school so lots who went pre school don't get in and lots who didn't go to pre school do get in.

TBH i think thats fair (even though i'm gutted as DD2 unlikely to get in).

Most preschools only operate a school day i.e. end at 3.30pm and so to give priority would disadvantage working parents. In receotion such parents could use after school club etc. I would expect parents to have looked at the schools admission criteria before sending a child to preschool.

I didn't send dd1 to the preschool as i knew we were out of catchment so in a 'grey' area in terms of gaining a place. I sent dd2 there as i thought she would have more of a chance of a place but its looking likely out of parish siblings wont get in (but i did know the risks).

They probably need to make it clearer on this literature - ours is very clear - pre school has no impact on reception.

More fool the parents.

I think you are over-thinking this. And I'm not sure why it is a problem. Private pre-schools are generally for childcare purposes, and people choose the one that suits them best. A parent would have to be very naive to assume that a place at a private nursery would have any bearing whatsoever on admission to a state primay

In our area even within the primary school, there are separate admissions procedures for nursery places and reception places, and a place in the nursery is not one of the criteria for admission to Reception. The nursery at our primary takes twice as many children as Reception because it only does half days. Also lots of pafrents who live very close do not take up a place in the school nursery because they need day long childcare - so the catchment for the nursery is bigger.

Any parent who reads even an introductory paragraph in an LEA Admissions booklet knows all this!

Pre-schools, private or school attached ones are often going to have different catchment's - some children may not attend a pre school, others will go to day care nurseries to meet the needs of working parents. These children will then be in the mix when it comes to school allocation and they should not be disadvantaged because of their pre-school arrangements. I do know of the one school where priotity is given for children attending their nursery but I don't agree with it.

I do feel for parents who have a horrible wake up call but am inclined to agree with Haberdashery. Local authority admission booklets while maybe not perfect are on the whole clear about admission criteria and parents should not be under any illusions about getting into schools that are totally unrealistic.

I don't see the problem - private nurseries need to keep their places filled so they aren't going to restrict who they take.

Why would parents think that paying for a private pre-school would give them any priority in getting in to a state primary school? That doesn't make sense.

Just to clarify, it's not private as in private, obviously there are fees but these are cheap compared to some I've heard about, and 3 & over are government funded. It doesn't 'guarentee' anything.

It's quite attached to the primary and yes I know they can take who they like, I did point that out. I just think it's a shame that there is such a fallout because of the massive difference in numbers.

A friend of mine whos ds goes to the preschool can't increase his hours now because they're already full. Would it be do-able to offer extra hours to the local kids first before accepting kids from miles away? It might cut down on the disappointment.

What do you mean - is it private or state?

its a normal pre school by the sound of it - meaning people can use state funded free sessions but add to it if necessary?

I would have thought most who attend the pre school would want the school anyway, even if they live far away? Not all pre schools prioritise local area e.g. schools may prioritise siblings, many of which may live far away having got in previously.

Also not all schools have a pre school so some take advantage of others.

Its unfair to offer one child 5 days and another none just because they may end up at a different school. I know it sound unfair -my dd1 is in Y1 of school and dd1 is in pre school. Most of thepre school (no sibling) kids will get into school by distance even though dd2 wont - there will be arguments both sides. It really comes down to research. I cant believe that anyone these days hasn't researched school admissions before age 3-4?

Everything that Blu said.

Dawny, for your own good I do hope no one puts you in charge of nursery / pre-school provision. If parents seeking private daycare (albeit with the Early Years subsidy per child) are required to go through the whole 'catchment area' anxiety that accompanies primary and secondary admissions to get a place in a private nursery you will have a price on your head!

The nursery attached to our school, it is part of the school, same head teacher, same nativity etc but still confers no advantage, which is fair for all the reasons already given. It is made clear before admission, but still parents hope to 'get their face seen', but that's not how it works. Maybe the preschool could be persuaded to make it a bit clearer before people sign up.

The problem with extra days is a problem for all preschools, when admission to school was staggered - sept and jan intakes, spaces became available at different times of the year so extra sessions/ places became available. Now most children seem go in sept, a preschool will lose funding for two terms if they keep spaces from the sept until when someone wants an extra session in the april. More space will be available in sept, parents need to try to think a year ahead now, it's not the preschool's fault, the pressure comes because schools which once staggered entry now will take them all together.

Also the preschool being full is partly the increased birth rate, and that it is a good preschool. I think parents also have a responsibility to find friends for their children near where they live. All the preschool can do is make it clearer in their admissions criteria, but unless a preschool is actually integrated into a school (as ours is), they will be making a leap to assume they will get a place in the school.

We are the same as 3duracellbunnies.

We are a school nursery. Our numbers plummet every September. In order to be sustainable, we accept any children who want a place, regardless of their address. However, when they are shown around, we make it clear that places at school follow the LA application process and there is no connection between being at the nursery, and a better chance of getting a school place.

The fact that we take children from a wider area unfortunately means that sometimes, children who are eligible for nursery funding for the summer term, aren't able to get the sessions or days they want. Some years there aren't any places at all left by the summer term. There's simply no way round this. We can't afford to have empty spaces.

We're not even sure if there will be spaces in Jan, hence going to another preschool first who will accept them at a younger age.

Of course this is the case it is a complete no-brainer - we can't access school-based preschools at all as they will only accept a child for sessions 5 days a week and our dc go to daycare 2 days a week. There will be lots of working parents in that situation.

If parents are disappointed that they aren't going to the attached school then they should have sent their dc to the preschool of their nearest or most likely infants/primary school.

I don't see why you're so concerned about people "being disappointed" when frankly, it's up to them to aquaint themselves fully with the admissions procedure. They will have been told at the start anyway. If they choose to disregard the information and hope for the best, that's their problem really. And to seriously suggest that the pre-school alters its admissions on the strength of that is crazy, sorry. They're a business!

Youbroke - nurseries are not allowed to insist that you take 5 sessions in order to be able to access the funded hours.

A bit different to the OP issue, Littlefish but at our school preschool they will not let you split funding between them and another provider (unless they have less than 5 sessions available), think they can do it because are LEA. This means that working parents who sent their child to the nursery for 3 sessions would not get any assistance towards their nursery places on the other 2 days. The toing and froing, especially with older siblings means it is only really suitable for SAHP. Youbroke is saying that she can't therefore access a school nursery, so it would be unfair if she therefore couldn't access that school.

As far as I know, the split funding requirements are on their way to becoming statutory. My local authority has already brought them in. I'm not sure of the exact timescale, but all local authorities will have to comply, thereby giving parents more choice.

I realise what youbroke was saying, but wanted to point out that currently, or very soon, nurseries will not be able to insist on parents taking 5 sessions in order to be able to access their funded sessions.

I dont know of any school preschools round here that dont insist on 5 days littlefish - so thats interesting about the funding. Although who would pick them up on those 2 days at 12.30 is another matter!

I work in a LA nursery attached to a school. We offer any combination of days and sessions for parents, plus they can buy additional sessions (as long as we've got spaces).

From September we are offering wrap around care as well so that we increase our appeal to working parents by offering 8 til 5.

We know that in order to make the budgets work, we need to fill our places and this is how we're doing it.

I wish our school nursery offered full days, but they have dug heels in, even though they have lunch club, so children are in at all times (no lunch break arguements), but not permitted to stay all day.