Is it sensible to put a state educated child in for 7+ exams without tutoring? What gentle prep work might help?

[AubergineKenobi]

I am thinking of putting DD1 (aged 5, yr 1) in for some prep school entrance exams next winter (so in 6-9 months). Do people intensively tutor their children for 7+ in the way they do for 11+? Is it necessary?

I have no intention of getting her a tutor or to make a big deal about it. I don't mind doing some gentle prep but nothing too serious. Is it realistic to take such an approach? Am I wasting everybody's time?

DD1 is bright but no genius. In her state primary she is on the top table for reading and spelling (they do not differentiate for maths but she seems to like numbers so I think she is doing OK). She has finished the reading schemes and is a free reader but she does not love reading and has a slightly lazy attitude to work. This is one of the reasons I am thinking about transferring her to a prep. Becasue she is bright and able her state sprimary seem to be letting her float along and she is getting the message she does well without trying. I think a smaller class size and more academic competition might help improve her work ethic.

I would give her some reading comprehension practice papers - think you can get this kind of thing from WH Smith. Most schools will set an English (comprehension) test and a Maths test; some will have a NVR test too but others may rely on interview.

I don't think a huge amount of tutoring is necessary but your daughter should at least be familiar with the format of the entrance exams. Tutoring becomes a more serious business at 8+, in my experience.

Depends which school and where you are in the country. If you are North London and thinking of Habs, North London, City, I honestly don't think that you are being fair to your DD by not tutoring her especially as there are limited 7+ places for girls, competition is fierce and the mothers are determined. From a state primary, however good, she is also likely to be significantly behind in literacy and in some maths. She needs to be writing joined up, write stories with proper structure and be pretty confident in year 3 maths including knowing all her tables.

If you are looking at somewhere more gentle then familiarising her with some sample papers and getting her to complete them in s given time should be fine.

Thanks.

We are in West London. Thinking of putting her in for Latymer Prep, Bute House and Notting Hill. I think Bute House is hideously competitive but Latymer is slightly more relaxed, I know less about Notting Hill.

I have just downloaded some sample paper from North London Collegiate and High Gate (just because they happen to put papers online - we are not applying to those schools). I think she is not too far off the mark in maths (although would she really need ALL her timestables? I thought it was amazing that she knows 2, 3, 5, 10 and 11) but the literacy looks really hard. She can write joined-up and spell OK but she hates writing. Ever sentence is torture. These papers require A LOT of writing.

I think it is the writing that is the challenge for the state school children. If they are good at maths you should be able to cover the ground with them. It sounds like she is well on track with her maths. The level of creative writing is much more than they are used to. I would see if you can find they key things they should be able to include in their writing at a level 3 and help your DD to include them. It would be fairly decent length sentences, lots of wow words, good understanding of grammar ie picking out verbs, nouns, adjectives, good spelling, speech marks, question and explanation marks, not sure of the the rest as we decided not to go down the 7+ route in the end but have had fairly detailed discussions with schools / tutors as to what they need to do.

I think that HABS boys also have their 7+ papers online as do Kings college Wimbledon. Good luck!

I posted about this not long ago. I put my dd from a pretty mediocre state school up for a 7plus and she got in, somewhat to my surprise because like yours, she is bright but no genius.

She is also dyspraxic and one school I discussed entering her for made it pretty clear she wouldn't really stand a chance, since her handwriting is diabolical.

Luckily, the school I preferred said they had no problem with such issues and it clearly didn't since it managed to decipher her scribbles. I didn't have her tutored but I did some work with her over the Christmas holidays (not fun, but necessary because she hadn't covered anything like enough maths on the syllabus to stand a chance otherwise). I didn't do all the wow words, speech marks stuff at all, in fact I feel a bit bad reading that - it never occurred to me.

Overall, I reckon your approach sounds just fine and do not believe anyone who says a tutor is necessary.

Maybetimeforachange.

Why do you assume that a child coming from a state school would be significantly behind in literacy and maths. Surely each child is an individual, and what about the gifted and talented, whether identified or not these exist in state schools. I tutor and have tutored my own children and some of my friends, lots of mothers do this to support their childs learning. My children have never been behind in any subject and all do/ have attended state schools. I find your comment both offensive and ill informed.

Maybe - DD could do all you say a state child can't and could do this at the end of Y2 bar all her timetables which she finished learning at the start of Y3. She goes to a "satisfactory" state school. Your post was pretty silly.

[Your post was pretty silly] why? State primaries are very different and what is normal in one school it's outstanding in another.

I don't know about the schools that you mention, but I didn't do any tutoring for my DS to enter the junior school of quite a well known boys school.

(Actually, I did do Toe by Toe with him, but not specifically for the 7+)

He is dyspraxic and also has joint laxity in his hands, and has terrible handwriting.

He passed the test, in around the middle of the group. (It is selective and competitive.)

Because of his SN, I didn't want to push him into an environment where he would be struggling, which is why we didn't do any coaching.

(Actually, I did no tutoring for my DD for the 11+ for similar reasons, although she has no SN - she also got into the school she was aiming for, if it's of interest.)

SEN, I mean, of course.

Rainbowinthesky: it is not a silly post, they need to be doing all those things by Christmas of year 2, not by the end of year 2 as they sit the exams in January of YR2. In essence, for the superselective private schools they need to be at a comfortable level 3 nearly a year before they would sit SATS. Most state schools, however good they are, will not have covered this as a matter of course.

It will be very different in less selective schools, where some exam familiarisation will be ample preparation but places like NLCS and HABS have significantly decreased the number of children they bring in at 7, having increased their 4+ intake and the competition for very few places is fierce. The private pre-preps prepare their children well for the exams and do take them beyond the KS1 syllabus plus where we are in North London the same children are then tutored on top of this which raises the levels. I personally wouldn't consider putting any of my kids in for 7+ in those schools without tutoring as it simply isn't a level playing field.

Definitely need to prep otherwise it's not fair on the child as they won't be used to the style of questions, you have to remember the majority will be coming from pre-preps and will have been prepped from age 4. Find out how the will test the children and purchase some practice books and get her to do them each day as "homework".

If you have to prep your children and provide extra tutoring to pass exams to access schools how can you be certain they will be able to keep up with the standard expected once they are attending? My dc's have all been state educated but friends dc's at private selective schools passed exams with no extra tutoring their children were just naturally bright.

OP I am quite familiar with all these schools and have a dd who has been through it and is now 2 years into her new post 7+ prep school and have another dd who is approaching it. To be blunt you are being naive. Your dd will need to be approx 12 months ahead academically of her birth age. (not school year - the school will take into account her month of birth at age 7.) She will not need all her tables but will need to be able to use the four rules of number for her 2 3 4 5 and 10 & 11 times table. She must be able to write a story with a beginning, middle and end. She should be able to handle a simple comprehension exercise. The actually quality of her spellings won't be as important as her attempted language. She may not need a tutor but she will need to be prepared, whether that's done by you or someone else. An educated, determined parent can easily assist a child with some 7+ preparation.
Good luck.

I have been trying to get an example of what they are expected to do in their creative writing but can't find one anywhere. Anyone got a link for an exemplar?

maybetimeforachange talks a lot of sense IMO, and mirrors my own experiences

This isn't a state vs independent issue per se. It is a question of whether the school is setting a curriculum designed to deliver a child to these exams. Some independents around here state that they don't support even 8+, let alone 7+, and, duly, the curriculum isn't designed for the somewhat older-fashioned requirements of these exams, at least at the levels required by the most academic London preps. Other pre-preps have honed their entire education experience to maximise preparedness for these tests and this does advantage these children. I would still hope that that these schools can differentiate between a very well coached (whether by a school or a tutor) child and one less polished but with lots of potential, but in some cases, perhaps the sheer weight of applications makes this harder to pull off.
Latymer at least say you don't need the 6,7,8 and 9s, or at least did so last time I looked, and if your chosen schools do verbal reasoning, have a go at some Bonds.

we are thinking of entering dd for the same schools as you - she is already at a private pre-prep but they do not prepare for 7+ as they go through to CE. They advised us we would have to tutor her as although she is pretty much ahead on everything, they just wont have covered the exam scope in that time nor would she be used to the format of the papers. we are doing very low key prep now via the papers you can buy. Forced move for us due to location move.
I do wish people responding to these threads would accept that it is actually quite nice for a child to have seen what an exam paper looks like before the day - tutoring is not about somehow forcing a child to perform beyond their capability. For us it is about getting dd used to an exam format - would an adult really go into an exam without any idea what an exam looked like, how to time your progress through it etc? If DD gets in it will be because she had chance to show her capability - and spending half an exam working out what on earth it is, isnt going to give her that!

janet41 talks a lot of sense and agrees with what i said. I mean you would prepare for you GCSE exams wouldn't you, its just the same if you didn't revise and did badly it wouldn't mean you weren't bright you just wouldn't have prepared. Prepping the child is important so they are used to the style of questions, reduce anxiety about the exams and so that they can show there full potential and that they understand what they are being asked to do. Once they are into a particular school, the school will teach them, all the schools want to know is that they are up to a certain level and that they will be open to the different style of learning and teaching found in prep schools.

Agapanthii - "She will not need all her tables but will need to be able to use the four rules of number for her 2 3 4 5 and 10 & 11 times table"
Hi, just wondering what you mean by this? What's the 4 rules of number? Thanks..

Sorry, they are plus/add, minus/subtract, divide and multiply.hth.

Gosh, I have just come back to this thread and seen how many more replies there have been - thank you all for your advice. I am relieved to read that they take account of age rather than academic year - DD is the youngest in her current year of 90 children so she may well be the youngest sitting the exams. She will not be six until the end of August. She was born a little early so should realy only be in Reception now. I keep thinking how unfair it is that she has a whole year less to prepare and learn.

When I say I have no intention of tutoring or making a big deal of the exams I don't mean I am not going to gently practise comprehension etc at home. I will try. I think we have a long way to go though. Last night I suggested we both write a story about animals (she has never written a story at home before). This was her effort (it took 20 minutes but was at least written in joined up):

"Once ap on atime there was a loin who lived in a cave. When poeple came to pick carrotts and letusis he roared at them. The poeple ran away. One day my sister found a big gun and shot him. He was dead. Every one was happy and they made a yummy cake with choclate on. The end."

Hmmmm. I think we have a lot of work to do.

dd1 writes pretty similar stories to that with worse spelling and as I said, she is a year older and has got in to a supoosedly very academic school . You'll be fine. Good luck.

My DS is at a non-selective, not very academic private school where they don't prepare for 7+. He took three 7+ schools in January and got offered places at all three. We are in SW London so no overlap with your schools but all very similar. My DS is also very young in the year.

We did three each of practice comprehensions, bond verbal reasoning papers and bond non-verbal reasoning papers. We practised writing a story in 20 mins, again three times! One of the schools seemed to allow longer for the story so he finished in record time but the others seemed to be about that long (although it was very difficult to get any information out of him at all about what he did...!). I don't think it was worth doing any more practice as he had got an understanding of the format and the time allowed without getting bored. And, to be honest, he refused to do any more.....

Re times tables, he knew 2,3,5 and 10 and could struggle around to work out the 4 times table if required.

The story titles in the exams included The Magic Trip at one school and The Magic Box at another. I think that they would be expecting more volume than your daughter wrote on animals in the exam, but my son would have been at about the same point at this stage in year 1 so there is loads of time to go.

The other thing is to practise a few interview questions with your dd. Nothing horrendous but make sure that they can tell the interviewer what their favourite book is, favourite subject at school, do they like playing any sports, favourite toys, brothers/sisters etc.

A friend's dds both got into Latymer in Y2 and Y4 respectively. They are naturally bright, could read well, reason and use excellent vocab naturally, and knew a few times tables.

But they weren't tutored, and they came from our local state primary.