Lost it with dd over maths :(

[paddlinglikehell]

I feel really ashamed of myself, as I totally lost it today.

DD has some maths sent home for the holidays (YR2 age 7 Sept. birthday), she moved schools and her maths is showing some gaps with the basics.

Addition seems no problem, but subtraction she seems to have hit a wall. The sums were things like 19-6 and 16-4, basically numbers up to 20.

Now she seems to know her number bonds and I went through some of the ways she could work the sums out, although her prefered method is literally counting back on her fingers (fair enough). However, when she started doing them, I noticed that she would start counting wrong on her fingers, would then just add the numbers together, like she forgot she was doing subtraction (they were all subtraction!). Part way through she just gave up and said they were too hard.

I know it is a lot do to with confidence and started to help her, but she then just switched off and couldn't even do 17-3 (As she isn't grasping the use of number bonds, I suggested she just look at the units 7-3 and then add the 10), but she then couldn't work out 7-3!!

It all ended badly, she put her fingers in her ears and refused to listen!!! I then shouted at her that she couldn't just 'give up' and that she was going to be left behind everyone even more if she didn't just try.

I know it was the wrong thing to do and it won't help, Poor little mite, looked so shocked at me. I feel horrid. I am just frustrated - not that she doesn't know how to do them, but the fact she just is not willing to listen. I feel mean and don't know where to go from here. I don't think I am cut out for this parenting business!!!

At this age with DS1 he seemed to be struggling big time numeracy wise. Many rows were had re homework.

I found a tutor who came round for half an hour a week.

She established what he was struggling with/how far behind he was. Went right back to basics and built his confidence. He soon came up to speed and she was so patient with him.

He is 12 now and in set 2 for numeracy.

Try drawing up a 100 number square and getting her to move x places backwards from the sum.

I just attended 4 evening classes for parents at my DS's school. It gave us an overview of how/what is being taught and up-to-date methods. It is also gave an insight into problems that children face. They said it was difficult for children to count 'backwards' for subtraction and they use number lines in our school. They introduce it around the same time as number bonds. We also use numicon since a visual aid to do maths, it seems to help and make it 'click' faster.

I'd stop and do something fun if I were you. If you get angry and frustrated, then there is no point and a great deal of harm being done.
Let someone less personally involved do it, school, a tutor, a relative. Go and do something that you both like and dump the frustration.
You are cut out to be a parent, subtraction doesn't have to be part of it.

Is giving up a realistic option?

Don't parents need to learn how to support their children without the wheels falling off the trolley? Surely it's maths today, but teenage sex tomorrow or being careful with money. Don't parents just have to learn how to be parents just as children have to learn how to be children?

A ruler would be better than an number square at this stage. But I agree with Dustinthewind, give her a cuddle and go and do something nice.

Whilst it seems a simple and 'easier' way to work out subtraction, using tens and units is a difficult concept at first and your dd may not understand it yet, so I would steer clear of that method for now.

What if she has the actual objects in front of her? So 17 grapes, take away three (actually take them away). Count how many are left. Use a number line (a bit like a ruler with numers 0 - 20 on it) put the grape at 17 and count back three jumps (move the grape) and see where it lands. I suggest grapes because after she's finished, she can eat them and this time she can do 17 take away one and actually eat it and see how many are left. Once she understands the concept she will be able to do it.

To get her involved, let her make her own number line, only work for ten minutes at a time. Try and show her how to check her work and if she finds her own mistakes give her lots of praise. Do now and next with her - now we will do ten minutes numeracy and next we will do colouring (or whatever).

have you tried asking her how she would do it at school?

Personally, I would give her 20 smarties and let her do it physically (count out 19 smarties, eat take away 6, count what is left) just to make it fun for a while - and then move to number lines / grids before she tries to do it on fingers or in her head.

x-post, except Fairienuff's version is healthier

To be honest, I would be inclined to take it right back and give her blocks to count. It does sound like she needs to build up her confidence with this, and having something concrete in front of her that she can SEE is a good starting point. You can then move on to putting the blocks/counters along a number line but still using them to work out the sums - and then doing it without them.

It is better to take time and make sure she has grasped the idea firmly than to rush her on.

'Is giving up a realistic option?

Don't parents need to learn how to support their children without the wheels falling off the trolley? Surely it's maths today, but teenage sex tomorrow or being careful with money. Don't parents just have to learn how to be parents just as children have to learn how to be children?'

She's yelling at her 7 year old because neither of them can cope with doing subtraction at home, just like my father used to do with me. Perhaps I'm being over-sensitive.
The OP may well return to HE when she's calmed down and got a grip on who is the adult and who is the small child with her fingers in her ears being told she's failing.
Or she may not.

But not today, OP.

But we got to the point with DS where every single piece of numeracy homework ended in tears, as we explained and explained and explained but to no avail.

Sometimes the parents can't do it.

So now is the time to learn how to teach your children things. I don't think maths is the problem here. It's explaining things to a child that's the problem. Explaining things to children is essential if you have children. So folks are just going to have to get used to it, in my opinion. It's not going away.

Doesn't help when the school teaches maths in an entirely different way to the way we understand it.

The school had to do evening lessons for the parents.

Bit hard to explain maths to a 7 year old when they are sobbing and having a paddy as soon as maths is mentioned.

Sparkling, what was the homework and the age of the child?

He was 7 but he is now 12 so can't remember, sorry. Definitely numeracy.

OK, I won't press any further. But if anyone can give a more precise example of what maths homework is currently causing a meltdown that would be interesting.

It was definitely that DS wasn't grasping the concepts before the class moved on to another one IIRC. He was afraid to admit to the teacher.

So the tutor had to go back to basics, and with someone sitting next to him (that wasn't a parent) and calmly going over it he gained confidence.

What about linking this to something that she is interested in / excited about / keen on? We had a game in the car on the school run - 'if you had 17 buns and you gave one to three of your friends, how many would you have left?' That has now gone on to things like 'if there was one cake cut into 6 and one cake cut into 4, which would have the biggest pieces' and 'if you had 24 sweets and you shared them between with your three friends, how many would you each get - what if it was only 2 friends you shared with...' etc. Funnily enough he can work out cakes, buns and sweets very much more accurately than if you ask him what 17 - 3 is or what 24 divided by 4 is or whether a 6th or a 1/4 is bigger.

I truly believe that parents can do it. It's hard because the child will fight against it. My ds would rather spend an hour crying and complaining in an attempt to avoid having to do his numeracy homework, than spend 20 minutes getting it done.

He used to tell me he couldn't do it, it was too hard, etc. But it wasn't too hard, he just didn't want to do it and he thought crying would get him out of it. This was when he was about 8 or 9. It took a lot of patience and a certain amount of ignoring before he realised that he had to do his homework and he had to do it properly.

It was a really difficult time for all of us. But one of the responsibilities of being a parent is making sure that children take their responsibilities seriously. I had to say things like 'If you don't get started within the next two minutes, you will not be watching tv today' then I would walk away and set the timer on the oven. For him, it was all about making choices and facing the consequences.

Now, he is 12, working hard at secondary school, self motivated, getting great grades, organising his own homework and just getting all the schoolwork done because that's life. You have to do it, so you might as well get on without a fuss.

The trick is to make it as stress-free as possible. Keep cool, set limits, give rewards and praise the effort rather than the result. Stick with it OP, it will pay off in the long run. She is your dd and she needs your help and support. Yes, have a break, do something fun together, then come back to it refreshed and ready to have another go. Don't give up on her, if you don't give her the extra support, who will? x

Hi paddlinglikehell

I fear I disagree with you learnandsay it is quite simply shocking by April of Y2 if your child can't subtract a single digit from 2 digit numbers. Now there may be other issues, but if it's just an ordinary kid with no learning issues then frankly after 11 terms in school they should be able to add numbers to 30, preferable 100 and subtract 1 digit numbers from 2 digit numbers. Our view is that it was how it was taught. Quickly explained - a bit of group practice in chaotic class room - and then never returned to again - which did not suit my DD at all.

So paddlinglikehell - here's my advice. If you're worried that there are gaps in knowledge, that your DD doesn't seem to get number patterns and is very unsure of which methods to use when adding/ subtracting - I would encourage you to investigate and trial mathsfactor: www.themathsfactor.com/. You have several option: monthly subscription, summer/ winter camps and worksheets (all various prices).

We found that the slow but steady work rate (5 x 10 - 20 minute homeworks - a video explaining concept, some practice (but not always) and then 20 - 50 sums to work through) and it's very child-friendly visual approach really suited our DD1. She's gone from being considered 'no good at maths' to sitting at top table in 2 years (now Y4). She's one of only 4 in her class to know how to divide with remainders and knows her times tables solidly to x12 (only 6 others in class know times tables to at least x10). The school aren't pleased that we've gone 'off plan' - but agree the results are clear - there is a marked improvement. We found that at first we had to help (with the typing especially) but that gradually our eldest DD (Y4) is doing more and more herself, and we're much less involved.

I will add that there are lots of other options MN folk have posted about maths. Kumon. Mathletics. BBC Learning maths games. Etc... So I'm not trying to sell something. Just as a parent who didn't feel I could teach maths as it is now taught (and with the terminology now used) - it was a relief to hand it over to a straightforward system that fit around our home life and that my girls (DD2 also doing it now) really enjoy.

HTH

Even I'm having a problem working out how number bonds help with 17 - 3

sorry learnandsay - that should be after 7 terms in school (April Y2 for paddlinglikehell's DD) - I inadvertently was thinking about my DD.

l & s, it depends on the child. I have an amazing mathematician in my class who currently can't do geometry because he lacks the fine motor skills, visual skills and accuracy.
With most younger children, the sooner they understand the 4 operations, times tables and number bonds, the sooner they can apply the knowledge in problem solving and the faster they see the connections between. It's how you get them to learn and retain the information that is interesting, and where personalised learning comes in.
It's not just as simple as saying 'word problems are tricky'