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Times tables in modern times do we stop at 10?

39 replies

caffeinated · 31/03/2012 14:29

Have been playing some times tables games online and noticed but the questions ended at 10x each number. Do kids not need to learn 11x and 12x each number anymore and so in the same vein do they still need to learn 11 and 12x tables?

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nooka · 01/04/2012 00:20

We had to chant our tables up to 12 in the 70s. I can't say it's been very useful. I was good at math up to O level (top set) but my mental arithmetic has never been great.

PastSellByDate · 01/04/2012 03:44

Good question caffeinated

Certainly DDs school seems to only teach to x10.

I learned to x12 - but like the reasons cited by mrz assumed it was linked to converting inches to feet - a lot of us oldies made clothing back then, sewed curtains, made quilts, etc...

interesting that x13 is tested for on 11+ - I didn't know that.

I suppose the question is whether schools are teaching that multiplication is multiple additions? And whether our children are getting this? (I don't doubt it's being taught, but the message isn't being received in our case at least - although learning times tables to songs seems a great success and didn't exist in my school days, although the phonograph did)

In principle one can presume that most children would be able to do x11 to at least 11 x 10 - just because they know their ones table. Whether they know the trick beyond 10 x 11 or not is not clear:

beyond 10 to 99 - take first and last digit of multiple - and make a space between - add first and last digit & put the sum into the space. If addition is > 10 - then carry over to hundreds column (etc as appropriate).

so 11 x 11 = 1 - 1 = 1 - (1+1) - 1 = 121
11 x 12 = 1 - 2 = 1 - (1+2) - 2 = 132
11 x 13 = 1 - 3 = 1 - (1+3) - 3 = 143
and so on...
11 x 29 = 2 - 9 = 2 - (2+9) - 9 = 2 - (11) - 9
= 2(+ carry the 1) - 1 - 9 = 319

I like twelves because I still work in inches or dozens
I like 13 because I've always enjoyed a baker's dozen.

So I suppose what we need to double check as parents is that our children could quickly work out more complicated multiples (to x20 say) - either by addition or by grid system or good old fashioned long multiplication.

I suppose how they get there isn't important - it's just that they do get there.

morethanpotatoprints · 01/04/2012 22:18

All my dc's, me learned 12 times table. My dh went to grammar and did 13 times.

What I find interesting is I am dyslexic and struggle with systems and I along with all my class mates knew all our tables by the end of y3 (then first yr junior), this was the same for both my ds's (13, 10 years ago)

My dd is not expected to know them all until y6, but she will know them all before the end of y3 as I work with her before school, just 10 mins a day.
We did them in this order. 1,2,5,10,11,3,4,6,7, ( 8,9,12, to go). I have found rote learning to be the best system by far, but others may disagree. Learning can be consolidated by fun activities which I give dd ocassionally.
What are others experiences here?

sarahfreck · 02/04/2012 11:11

I try and encourage my students to learn up to 12x12. We still use non-base 10 for time, where knowing multiples of 6, 12 and 24 are really useful. Also knowing multiples of 11 and 12 can be really useful when working with fractions in KS3 and 4. It also helps when doing KS3/4 work on highest common factors, lowest common multiples, prime numbers and the like.

Children still learn metric and imperial unit equivalences and may still need to convert feet into inches as part of this. They may know that one foot is about 30cm as a conversion factor, but be faced with a question that asks what 50 inches is in centimetres. It is easier to say this is 4 feet 2 inches and do 4 x 30 + 5cm rather than multiplying the whole lot by 2.5. This kind of question is particularly common at 11+ but also appears in KS3. It is also obviously a useful practical skill.

pilgrim777 · 02/11/2012 09:50

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KitKatGirl1 · 02/11/2012 10:01

But 15 x table doesn't need to be learned at all - It's just ten times then half again. Simples.

(I used to like it when VAT was 17.5% and hearing people in shops where you add the VAT on not being able to calculate it - it's just 10% then half again then half again...Boring now it's 20%...)

mrz · 02/11/2012 10:42

pilgrim777 Fri 02-Nov-12 09:50:31

^By the end of primary school children need to know up to their 12 times table.
then secondary school they are suposed to learn up to their 25 times table^

Sorry pilgrim where did you get that information? Currently pupils are expected to know up to 10X but the proposed new curriculum raises this to 12X

can I also ask your connection to Perfect Times ?

rabbitstew · 02/11/2012 12:21

Well, I guess that's why everyone can get good at arithmetic if they practice hard enough - just learn everything off by heart and you don't ever have to use anything but your memory, again. I hope, however, that the education system doesn't swing so far back in favour of memory feats that it forgets that there are other highly important features of intelligence.

mrz · 02/11/2012 12:33

Surely that's what you are using when you apply the number facts you know to solve everyday problems.
I wanted a hardwood floor in my lounge, so I measured the length and width and multiplied them together to find the area then used that to calculate how many packs I would need ...interestingly the workmen who came to fit it asked who had worked out what was needed because they said they often found the company miscalculated - perhaps because they had to use a calculator.

sittinginthesun · 02/11/2012 12:59

I think our school teach of to 10X as a matter of course, then progress on if the child is able. DS has done up to his 15X.

laughtergoodmedicine · 02/11/2012 13:09

I was never all that good at arithmetic. But I have learned to do a lot of stuff in my head. As CecilyP says numbers are always numbers. Its useful to have some at your fingertips. Pure mathmeticians treat maths as a religion. But I was never that good.

Feenie · 02/11/2012 13:46

can I also ask your connection to Perfect Times ?

Since Pilgrim777's only posts on MN are four today, all advertising wares, I can only wonder. Wink

Have reported them all - hoping not to get PMs of abuse this time; you know who you are!

CecilyP · 02/11/2012 16:05

(I used to like it when VAT was 17.5% and hearing people in shops where you add the VAT on not being able to calculate it - it's just 10% then half again then half again...Boring now it's 20%...)

But so much easier than to find the VAT on a total cost. Even I can divide by 6 in my head, rather than divide by 1.175.

iseenodust · 02/11/2012 16:10

DS, in a state primary, has as his current numeracy objective 'learn 12x table'.

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