Mainstream versus special needs schools

[Codandchops]

I am interested in the perspective of any teachers here regarding special needs support for children as they come up to the secondary years.

My DS is 9 and in Yr 4, he is autistic with ADHD and dyspraxia but has been well supported in mainstream school. When he first entered Yr 3 he could barely read but with medication for his ADHD and fantastic teaching he is now registering a reading age of 7 yrs 8 mths and a spelling age of 6 yrs 10 months (he is 9 yrs and 3 months).
The academic stuff is progressing but my concern is that his social and emotional skills are not doing as well (naturally due to his autism), he is very immature and gravitates towards younger children in the playground. The younger children quickly work out that DS does not like being teased and some will latch on to this. The result is DS returning to the classroom absolutely seething with rage and the staff having to find out the situation, ensure apologies are made etc which makes everything right again in DS's head.

My anxiety is about senior school where the pupil numbers are much higher and the lesson places change according to a timetable etc. I also worry that he will be much more prone to bullying in a bigger school.

The senior school his primary leads into is the smallest locally and has around 750 children. It is a Catholic school (as is the primary as we are Catholic) and the ethos is very much around supporting one another. Academically I feel they can meet his needs but it's the wider social stuff I am worried about. Plus the cuts to the education sector which WILL impact upon SEN provision no matter what the Govt say. This school is also known locally to be supportive of children with SEN.

I don't feel DS needs a special school necessarily, although I would not be averse to him attending one if they could meet his needs more effectively. I have looked round two of the local ones and the children in these schools seemed to have greater needs than DS although DS does have mild to moderate learning difficulties.

Is the best preparation for mainstream life as a very verbal ASD child growing into adulthood to be found in attending in a mainstream school? Or would I be setting DS up for failure...there are lots of positives to special education IF I can get DS a place.

Any SENCOs about? Should I give serious consideration to a special school?

There has recently been a CAF completed for DS and I find out more about the decisions made tomorrow. I am also planning to ask someone from SENCAN to be present for the Yr 5 Statement Review to see if I can make a duel application for both mainstream and special school.

It may be worth you posting this on the special needs board as there are bound to be people with experience of both systems. I don't have any advice except to say good luck to you and your DS and I hope you find a solution that works at secondary level.

We have two pupils with ASD who will be transferring to mainstream secondary this year and expect them to cope well. I think as long as the receiving school is supportive with good transition policies and staff most children will be OK.
Ask to speak to the SENCO of the secondary school and the transition staff if possible.

Does he have a statement as without one you won't realistically have the option of special school tbh. My ds did mainstream primary with full time 1 to 1 support, then he transferred to a unit attached to mainstream secondary (with full time 1 to 1 support although this isn't typical) which can be a good option but you need a statement. Now he attends an independent specialist school which appears to be working miracles and is well worth the 15 month fight and the costs of independent assessments, an educational law specialist solicitor and a barrister for a short while and a Tribunal in a months time!

Sorry just saw he has a statement which means you at least have options.

It is worth investigating to see if any local schools have ASD units attached

My DS2 has ASD and 20 hours statement. He had a successful MS primary placement and is now in Y7 in a MS secondary. It is quite a large school (9 form entry) and it has a large SEN dept. My DS loves it. He has made some 'friends,' he spends his lunch and break in the SEN 'club.' It's like a small SS within a MS school.

I visited 5 local MS secondaries, only two were suitable. One was very unwelcoming, so called outstanding and high in the league tables but not at all inclusive. 2 were just too small to have sufficient expertise.

You really need to visit all the available secondaries, see the SENCos and get a feel for the ethos. My DS has full time 1:1, more than his statement requires and works with the MS DC as he is academically average. Some of the DC have core lessons (English, Maths) in the SEN dept. It isn't a special unit but with a bigger school there will be enough other DC with SEN to make it seem like one. It isn't ASD specific, but, again it is big enough that there are bound to be other DC with ASD.

Have a look at the SN children board. Lots of experience there.

codandchops - i'm having the same dilema for ds2 who is the same age as your ds.
He has autism & learning difficulties & some mild physical stuff too.
He is at a lovely primary with a statement & 1to1.

I'm thinking about secondary & while i'm confident the right school could provide an OK environment & he will continue to progress in his own time (he is currently on yr 1 readinglevel, spelling is still a mystery to him)

But i am worried about his confidence, he is becoming very aware that he is different, while academically he is behind he is by no means oblivious to the fact that he needs extra help & support. He already tells me he is rubbish at everything & everyone is better than him.

So do we move him to SN school where he would i imagine be one of the more able pupils or does he be the least able in MS.

Oh if only i had a chrystal ball

Ime you can get a fair idea of the local schools by just going round talking to them. Our experience has been that secondaries on the whole are more clued up about SN, are better resourced and more organised. There are advantages to size and not all large schools are chaotic. You need to see for yourself.

Im in more of a major problem over schools because my DD has been classed as NOT MS and NOT SN. my DD is statemented because she has very severe SLI, she is currently in yr6 of junior school and due to move up this summer, but at the moment were stuck because she doesnt have a school to go to, due to them all saying they cant meet her needs.

Do no MS have language units attached Alison?

yes they have and the school turned her down instantly, they said that even they could not meet her needs

If she has a statement you can name the school you want her to attend in the statement. Have you had her review? If not I would ask for your preference to be written into the statement.

My dd has severe SLI too Alison and no units here, it is a nightmare and little understood so hard to get the right support.Just in process of applying for full one to one support-she currently gets 15 hours. She should get it as she has medical needs too and the school are supportive but I still feel we are in a lose lose situation as she is always going to struggle in mainstream but isnt really suitable for the local SN schools either.

OP I think my ideal for my dd would be half and half too. It is really hard to know what to do. I agree look around and see what the options are first off but IM limited experience anyway-the school being supportive is what makes the difference in mainstream-even with a statement the way they follow it and how helpful they are about gettimg the right strategies in place .

I would not write off special schools. You will find they have very dedicated, knowledgable, interested, flexible, specialist teachers who have the time and freedom to truely treat each child as an individual that would be me.

I am not suggesting that there won't be teachers like that in MS, but in a special school you can (pretty much) guarantee that every teacher will be clued up and ready to deal with a wide variety of SEN and will have the time to do so.

Many special schools cater for a wide range of needs so although one group of children may not be suitable peers it doesn't mean that there won't be plenty of children who are (which would be exactly the same for ANY child in ANY school).

I would send my own son to my EBD school for the small groups and quality of teaching.

Alison if every 'in county' school has stated that they can't meet your DC's needs you will probably have a case for looking at in county independent special schools and out of county placements.

I don't have personal experience of this but recently had this discussion with parent of a little girl who goes to my son's school. Her older sister is autistic and they sent her to a mainstream secondary school, and although she was doing ok academically, socially she was really, really struggling. They changed her to a special needs school and the day after she moved, she had friends, a social life, and she is much, much happier (I see her sometimes at the school gate and she looks so much happier than before). Her dad told me that her academic learning is not as high level but the school and support she is receiving is making her much more integrated socially and she is now a happy teenager.

I think you have to look at what is available to you where you are and go from there. Invovle your child as much as possible and talk to anyone you can.

DS1 attended MS Priamry and in some ways did well- Chair of School Council for a start. But academically he was way behind where he dhould have been, socially a nightmare and behaviourally awful. We found out that a school where we are takes just 2 kids with HFA / AS each year into a Base attached to a maisntream school (so A|SD Input but access to GCSE classes) and he transferred in September; he is now getting social skills help, and is academically caught up and beyond.

He could not have managed MS Comp; we went to look at it and it was too big, too crowded, cooker classes creating a sensory nightmare... the Base gives him a way out. He doesn't take French, Welsh or Music and instead does homework and social skills in his Base. It is working well for him.

DS3 also has ASD but he was pulled out of MS at 6 as he could not cope. He was referred originally to a Speech unit but the one here won't take children with any ASD signs, and he did eventually get an ASD diagnosis. It's a generic Base but he almost never accesses the MS stuff, does work at MS level in a few things though but needs the tiny unit. Of 12 kids, 11 have an ASD dx and the other, I am told, will soon.

The Base system is bloody fabulous insofar as we have used it but I could not have sent ds1 to a dedicated SNU where he could not have accessed a MS curriculum, I would however have chosen a dedicated SNU over MS for ds3 becuase of tehir different needs.

Involving ds1 in the decision over where to go was crucial, and also helped a lot when we applied for the rpecious palce, with 200 wanting to attend and only 2 places on offer.

I agree with Peachy. You can't say "special schools are better" or "mainstream schools will be better" as it's down to the individual school and their SEN department. Re lunchtimes / breaktimes, I know one particularly large school near here provides a lot of support at lunchtimes to all sorts of students they don't feel (or the student them self feels) they won't / aren't coping at lunchbreaks. I think many do on a smaller, less publicised scale. You need to go in and ask to speak to the SENCo at the Secondary schools and ask how the additional funding his Statement brings will be used to help him, and speak to the HoY / Pastoral lead about how they will support your ds - it needs to be a whole school ethos not a lone SENCo voice getting shouted down. The fact it's a fairly small school, and presumably most of his classmates are moving up with him would be a bonus I'd have thought ?

I agree that it depends so much on the individual child and what schools are available in the area. Mainstream would have been disastrous for my DS who has ASD and goes to an independent ASD school, but the vast majority of children with ASD here go to mainstream schools and it's worked for most of them.

DS is very academically able and he will have access to GCSEs at school but the focus is on life skills. The HT has the attitude that qualifications can be taken later in life, but social skills and functional independence skills need to be taught as a foundation, and is much harder to teach to adults.

I didn't involved DS in most of the school visits though and I think that was the right approach for us, as I visited so many schools before making a decision and it would have been confusing for him to visit them all. I am not sure either if it would have made sense to involve him in the decision, as he is quite immature and would probably base his decision on trivial issues like enjoying their lunch or playground, not the quality of teaching or academic options available!

If you think that your DS doesn't really need a special school, chances are that he probably won't get it, as places are so scarce and will be prioritised for those who definitely couldn't manage in mainstream. Special school places usually cost more than mainstream, so LAs won't fund these places unless it is really needed.

I would be wary about making applications to both special school and mainstream, as it would indicate to the LA that you would be satisfied with mainstream, and they would probably just agree to that as the cheapest option. Unless you mean an application for a dual/split placement (where your child would spend some days at special school and some at mainstream)? This is quite rare at secondary level, but it can work, though LAs and schools don't like it as it makes the funding quite complicated.

Valid point key; for us there were only 2 options- MS or ASD Base, so not as confusing for ds1.

Also agree with Back that it can vary so much; the local MS is supposedly working towards an ASD specialism but they had the money for the unit pulled. Everyone said they'd be great but when we got there they said that the only SEN room they ahd was so small that kids get help based on their names being pulled from a hat (statemented kids). 8 forms, 4 forms got support. I did think I'd heard wrong but LEA confirmed it; however as school is hugely over subscribed to they weren't arsed about attracting kids, it was only those of us in catchment who were likely to need the support

Oh Peachy, that's shocking.
It makes me so cross, this lack of provision.
I work at the other end of the age group - in Early Years - and we are just so frustrated at the lack of "inbetween" provision. As well as specialist provision for the children with the most severe needs, but that's another thread altogether.
It's just so short sighted in the longer term as well - if they got the provision right in the first place, it could prevent so many problems later in life. Best stop now berofre I get into ranting mode

Oh I quite agree

And can you imagine how many hard £££££££££'s they would save if the services were integrated properly so that early years input that cost more but led to shorter term claims could be seen as the money spinner it actually is?